Obama: US Could Go Broke Unless Healthcare Is Reformed

[turnpike boy]

Finally, a link to the report.

And a fascinating report it is! The US is 37th. because - as the 3rd. to last paragraph identifies - we evidently aren't fair in how we pay for healthcare. Of course, there is no objective parameter for what constitutes fairness.....only that, if all aren't treated exactly the same, it ain't fair.

Damn. And here I thought we were expected to make our own way in the world. You mean somebody else is responsible for me??? No wonder Obama got elected...I'm so out of touch with reality.

"In North America, Canada rates as the country with the fairest mechanism for health system finance – ranked at 17-19, while the United States is at 54-55. Cuba is the highest among Latin American and Caribbean nations at 23-25."

Hey, Canadians amongst us - how you feel about this? I'm not sure we need to ask the Cubans, as they've been mighty vocal about things there for a looong time.

But then again, we are pretty good at those things that make the quality of life pleasurable - "Responsiveness: Responsiveness includes two major components. These are (a) respect for persons (including dignity, confidentiality and autonomy of individuals and families to decide about their own health); and (b) client orientation (including prompt attention, access to social support networks during care, quality of basic amenities and choice of provider).", conditions that are apparently kinda easy to identify.

Huh. This, in reference to an earlier paragraph "Responsiveness: The nations with the most responsive health systems are the United States, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Denmark, Germany, Japan, Canada, Norway, Netherlands and Sweden....." Odd that we don't find France in here, isn't it?

Too much cut-and-paste here for me. And I need to find their objective ratings for Overall Level Of Health, which I would think to be a major factor in a report of this kind, and see where the US ranks in that category.

I'm off. See you later with what I find.

[Wayne Maybury]

Well I was going to stay out of this one but since you asked, what the he!!, I might as well jump in.

I think that many of the facts tend to be manipulated to suit one's needs. I really do not think that there is one system that is far better than another. Each system has it's strong and weak points. I like many others here feel that the government cannot run anything properly. Having said that, a strong point for socialized medicine is that no one is making a big profit. There are no very highly paid executives in ivory towers. I cannot remember the exact numbers but I think something like 14 cents out of every medical dollar in the US goes to administrative costs whereas that is only 2 cents per Canadian medical dollar spent.

It is true that there are line ups in emergency rooms up here and it can take time to get an appointment. However we have to look beyond that. If someone is really sick, they tend to be treated very quickly. Herein lies one of the big problems of socialized medicine. There is over crowding because it is free. I think that there should be a minimal charge involved when seeing a doctor or going to an ER. This would weed out a lot of people that do not really need to be there in the first place.

Is socialized medicine for everyone? Probably not. The US has a great system right now. It is up to you to decide but please don't think that the Canadian system stinks. Our system may not be perfect but it is very good. A small charge when visiting a doctor would go a long way to making it better by eliminating the over crowding.

Wayne

[turnpike boy]

A real response, not politically-laden.

I got to believe that your single statement - "...Our system may not be perfect but it is very good" - is probably the most honest and objective analysis any individual can provide. There is no be-all, end-all system that is perfect.

[cobra bill]

Turnpike boy, that's been my point all along, there is no perfect system, can we do better yes! but we have to get everyone in the system for it to work, in whatever fashion that may take, those of us who do have insurance, are paying for those that don't, so to say I don't want to pay for someone else's healthcare you already do, and they are going to the emergency room for something that may not have needed it, and the cost of using the emergency room for medical service is ridiculous.

[cobra de capell]

but we have to get everyone in the system for it to work

That sounds like Social Security and it's going broke.

Here's the deal - everyone is already in the health care system to one degree or another. Millions of those that don't pay premiums can't afford to pay premiums so they will be on the dole from Obama in the billions annually. Millions don't want to pay premiums - they receive care as needed - either pay for it or it's written off.

The system simply needs tweaking - I say tweak the system, get it working in the best possible way, cost effectively and only after that is accomplished consider adding uninsured citizens, but only if funds are available to do so.

I'm thinking that there will be unintended results if any Obama program is adopted - just like the stimulus package - trillions will be added to the programs, taxes will be through the roof, doctors will exit, care will go south.

[fsstnotch]

There is an aweful lot of hearsay and internet knowledge in this thread. Many very valid points, and some first hand experience. I DO NOT want to see anything else gov't run. They need to stick to politics and leave the medicare, bankruptcy, Banks, car companies, and such to the private sector. if there is no perfect system, and each system has it's pros and cons, what is wrong with tweaking our system? Why must we completely adapt to someone elses system? Oh that's right.. the U.S. can't do anything for themselves anymore!!!!

Wayne, I think you have the best response of this thread.

[turnpike boy]

C/B, I've re-read your first post a few times looking for that position and cannot find it. What I DO find is unbridled argument that the Government is just fine for taking over healthcare, because they do such a good job with the post office (which is private, btw) and your Dept. of Defense position, which is second to no one. But nothing that affirms there isn't a perfect system. Of any kind.

It is reassuring to see that you do believe there's room for improvement - that's a whole lot different from stating flat-out that the Govt. ought to be running healthcare. You will get no argument from me that there is room for improvement; I cannot think of a single element of life that has no room for improvement.

But more Govt. is not where you want this to go. Unequivocally. The hazards of this practice are manifest and deeply problematic - look at politicians if you need any tangible proof. To think they could automatically do no worse is fatally flawed - you like paying for social programs, including paying for those who currently don't have healthcare? Didn't think so.

I have no doubt whatsoever you are proud of your DoD spot, and rightfully so. But remember it isn't the Govt who builds those airplanes and ships and tanks and....it's private industry who does that, and by your own admission better than anybody else.

Nothing is fair. Life isn't fair, and never has been. Nothing we do is going to make it so, no matter how much we may want it. Imposing unwanted will on people who don't need it is also unfair.

[cobra bill]

I agree with you, it does not have to be government run, but, no one should profit to the tune of what Bill Frits and his father have in this industry, the only way to keep the spiraling cost down is some incentive to keep it down, if that's a public plan then so be it, I cannot help those that are so greedy in life that they would sell their own country out for money! it gets to the point that you could not spend all that you have earned and accumulated in a lifetime, there are those in this country, that have a greater income then the GNP of most countries, and its greed, an addiction of sorts, so what's to hold them back if not a government plan to compete with, and if they are so much better then government, people that can afford it will turn to the competition.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by fsstnotch

There is an aweful lot of hearsay and internet knowledge in this thread. Many very valid points, and some first hand experience. I DO NOT want to see anything else gov't run. They need to stick to politics and leave the medicare, bankruptcy, Banks, car companies, and such to the private sector. if there is no perfect system, and each system has it's pros and cons, what is wrong with tweaking our system? Why must we completely adapt to someone elses system? Oh that's right.. the U.S. can't do anything for themselves anymore!!!!

Wayne, I think you have the best response of this thread.

Yes, tweaking is all that is needed at this time.

For example -

1. If a spouse goes on Medicare, allow the other spouse to do the same.
2. When someone goes on Cobra (loss of job, etc) allow them to stay on Cobra until they secure coverage.
3. Eliminate the 10% up charge by the insurer for handling Cobra coverage.
4. A safe way to automate medical records should be implemented.

My wife is on Cobra coverage at this time - Blue Shield will not even allow her to authorize a monthly charge to our checking account to pay the premium each month - they insist that the premium be paid by mail. That's insane. Sometimes I think that they want a payment missed so that they can cancel.

Anyway, each of us has a story to tell in this area - each of us can come up with 'tweaks' which would end up being in the 100's if not 1,000's that can readily be implemented by the insurers. Why not just tweak?

Besides, we all know that the cost of universal coverage will be nothing close to the estimates that are being published. Government estimates always need to be tripled from the get go.

[Dan40]

Today the Congressional Budget Office, says that the present partial health care proposal will cost in excess of a TRILLION dollars over the next 10 years and will only insure 16 million people more than are presently insured. Leaving the bulk of today's uninsured, unCHANGED.
Why must EVERY OBAMA administration proposal, plan, idea, goal be an unfinished 'work in progress?' NOTHING they have planned AND/or PASSED so far has had a clear path to a definite result, nor has its FUNDING been settled in advance. Not a single thing. WHY?

My wife [now retired except for limited consulting] has a Masters in Health Care Finance and has been a CFO in different hospitals and with different hospital corporations.
The PLIGHT of the poor, uninsured is fairly simple today. They go to the ER, they ARE treated, and treated throughly for their problem. Technically the hospital is supposed to refer them to an MD for a non-emergency. But when a hospital tries to do that, the poor, BUT KNOWLEDGEABLE, simply say, "I have a little chest pain too! Now the hospital MUST preform a full Cardiac workup, AND they will treat the original complaint anyway. So better to not try to turn them away for minor problems.
When it is all over, the hospital writes it all off, knowing they will never collect a cent. If the patient is poor enough, the hospital bills Medicaid.
Medicare, is a health plan for qualified people over 65. Medicaid is a limited welfare plan for poor people. Many interchange the 2 terms but they sound similar but are vastly different programs.

The problem facing the poor today?? IT damages their DIGNITY that they must go to the ER for their care. The care is fine, its their DIGNITY that we must spend a few TRILLION dollars to fix.

[fsstnotch]

Unfortunately, some peoples greed also lead them to drive BMWs and Benzs all the while having no health insurance. Some of those people claim they can't afford it, others just think nothing bad can happen to them. My brother in law is in that latter bunch. My Brother in law, single guy, doesn't ever go to the Dr, refuses to buy health insurance. he would much rather spend his money on other things. So why exactly should i be responsible for paying the healthcare costs of these people?

I agree for putting a stop to the climbing costs, but ANY government involvement is just going to make matters worse.

[cobra de capell]

So why exactly should i be responsible for paying the healthcare costs of these people?

In what way do you pay their costs, e.g. those that can afford health insurance but opt to not have it?

Now, paying the costs for those that cannot afford to pay - those that end up in emergency rooms - I see your point, but if they really cannot afford it - we end up paying anyway. Seems like Obama want them to have the same level of access that paying customers have - access levels should continue to be based on payment with everything else welfare.

[Wayne Maybury]

Thanks for the positive feedback guys. I purposely tried to be objective as this topic can really get people going. I have to be honest and say that it drives me nuts when I hear an American politician stating that the Canadian system is really bad because......you fill in the blanks..... We can look at any system and pick out negative aspects sort of like saying "my aunt smoked all her life and never got lung cancer so smoking doesn't cause cancer". You have to look at the overall picture. not just isolated parts.

Whether or not a universal health care system is good for the US remains to be seen but I really have to doubt that bringing it in will be a major step towards eliminating the government deficit as I have heard.

Has there been any announcement as the how the millions of illegal immigrants would be affected by this program? Every Canadian citizen has a Medicare card that is used when visiting a doctor or a hospital. Would the US issue medical cards to illegals? They would then be guaranteed free medical care once they get those cards which certainly will add to the overall bill.

Wayne

[Dan40]

There are basically 3 kinds of patients.
1.SELF PAY-- Those that have money to pay but choose not to be insured.
2.INSURED--Those covered by private insurance, individual or group coverage.
3.And those covered by a Government program or policy.

Lets say a surgery has to be done and the hospital/surgery center charges $20,000.00 for the surgery.
#1. is billed for $20,000.00 and must pay that.
#2. is also billed for $20,000.00 But he has 80/20 coverage, so he pays $4000.00. Does his insurance company pay the remaining $16,000.00? NO, they have a contract with the hospital where they agreed that surgery is worth $8000.00. so the patient pays 20% of RETAIL, $4000.00 and the insurance pays 80% of WHOLESALE, $6400.00.
#3. The Government has a schedule of benefits list and allows a certain sum for each treatment. The $20,000.00 Retail price means nothing to the Government. For the particular surgery they have a price of $2500.00. A person with 80/20 coverage [like Medicare] would pay $500.00 for this surgery if it was outpatient. Gov. would pay $2000. If the surgery was inpatient [patient was admitted and spent more than 24 hours in hospital] then the Government pays a flat rate for the admitting diagnosis. Patient pay a preset deductible only. No 80/20.

Does the system need overhaul? YES, YES, Does it need more Government NO, NO!!

Fix, not replace.

Your Cobra has bad plugs and wires. Replace the Cobra or get a tune up?

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

So why exactly should i be responsible for paying the healthcare costs of these people?

In what way do you pay their costs, e.g. those that can afford health insurance but opt to not have it?

Now, paying the costs for those that cannot afford to pay - those that end up in emergency rooms - I see your point, but if they really cannot afford it - we end up paying anyway. Seems like Obama want them to have the same level of access that paying customers have - access levels should continue to be based on payment with everything else welfare.

Well, I am just being basic as far as having to pay higher taxes so that those who opt to not have insurance, will have it. For the most part, I don't believe anyone should be without insurance in some form. To be without is negligence on their OWN part. I was uneployed for 11 months from June 2008 to April 2009. I was still able to make ends meet with a mortgage, 2 car payments, insurance, utilities, gas prices/Diesel prices, etc. I have 2 mortgages, 1 is rental which pays for itself, total for both car payments was $700. I worked part time, and my wife worked for her measly 25k/yr while she is going to get her RN. it's not like it wasn't tough. We had to cut things that weren't needed! Some people just need to get some priorities! there are plenty of programs in place to help people out! Most of which I didn't qualify for because I made too much in the early part of last year.

Bottom line, I really HATE the direction our contry has gone! Our Gov't has dipped into too much! They need to stay the hell out and do THEIR jobs!

I for the life of my don't understand why I will get a fine in PA for not wearing a helmet on my bicycle, yet if I were riding a harley, it's ok to be helmetless? The gov't needs to step back seriously! I didn't wear a helmet as a child, nor did my parents. I'm pretty much fine! Maybe let people make their own choices in life. if 2 dudes want to marry... WTF does it matter? Are they hurting you? Nope! If I want to drive my car without a seatbelt (which I never do, but..) why should it be for them to tell me? I know it's unsafe, and I know the consequences. if i choose to not wear it... Natural selection! No more laws that protect you from yourself!!! it's rediculous!!!! ok, I've rambled enough!

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by Dan40

There are basically 3 kinds of patients.
1.SELF PAY-- Those that have money to pay but choose not to be insured.
2.INSURED--Those covered by private insurance, individual or group coverage.
3.And those covered by a Government program or policy.

Lets say a surgery has to be done and the hospital/surgery center charges $20,000.00 for the surgery.
#1. is billed for $20,000.00 and must pay that.
#2. is also billed for $20,000.00 But he has 80/20 coverage, so he pays $4000.00. Does his insurance company pay the remaining $16,000.00? NO, they have a contract with the hospital where they agreed that surgery is worth $8000.00. so the patient pays 20% of RETAIL, $4000.00 and the insurance pays 80% of WHOLESALE, $6400.00.
#3. The Government has a schedule of benefits list and allows a certain sum for each treatment. The $20,000.00 Retail price means nothing to the Government. For the particular surgery they have a price of $2500.00. A person with 80/20 coverage [like Medicare] would pay $500.00 for this surgery if it was outpatient. Gov. would pay $2000. If the surgery was inpatient [patient was admitted and spent more than 24 hours in hospital] then the Government pays a flat rate for the admitting diagnosis. Patient pay a preset deductible only. No 80/20.

Does the system need overhaul? YES, YES, Does it need more Government NO, NO!!

Fix, not replace.

Your Cobra has bad plugs and wires. Replace the Cobra or get a tune up?

Yep, exactly! My wife had Knee surgery on halloween last year. Dr bills were around $25,000. We owe close to $4000. Her surgery was done by one of the best in the country, 1 week after diagnosis! That's the kind of healthcare I like!

[cobra de capell]

fsstnotch

People should not be forced to maintain health insurance, but they should have to pay when something happens if they have funds. Non-citizens should be discouraged from using our health system. Also, anchor babies law should be eliminated - that will reduce the use of our system big time.

Actually the system works fine right now - just a little tweaking here and there would help, not a complete overhaul with unintended results.

[fsstnotch]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

fsstnotch

People should not be forced to maintain health insurance, but they should have to pay when something happens if they have funds. Non-citizens should be discouraged from using our health system. Also, anchor babies law should be eliminated - that will reduce the use of our system big time.

Actually the system works fine right now - just a little tweaking here and there would help, not a complete overhaul with unintended results.

I agree.

And under no circumstances should ANY illegal be granted Social security benefits of healthcare! I have many friends whom paid good money so their wives were legal in the U.S. They feel very cheated by the current talk of illegals being allowed any rights!

[cobra de capell]

ABC TURNS PROGRAMMING OVER TO OBAMA; NEWS TO BE ANCHORED FROM INSIDE WHITE HOUSE
Tue Jun 16 2009 08:45:10 ET

On the night of June 24, the media and government become one, when ABC turns its programming over to President Obama and White House officials to push government run health care -- a move that has ignited an ethical firestorm!

Highlights on the agenda:

ABCNEWS anchor Charlie Gibson will deliver WORLD NEWS from the Blue Room of the White House.

The network plans a primetime special -- 'Prescription for America' -- originating from the East Room, exclude opposing voices on the debate.

drudgereport.com

[Joe Wicked]

Originally Posted by Dan40

There are basically 3 kinds of patients.
1.SELF PAY-- Those that have money to pay but choose not to be insured.
2.INSURED--Those covered by private insurance, individual or group coverage.
3.And those covered by a Government program or policy.

Lets say a surgery has to be done and the hospital/surgery center charges $20,000.00 for the surgery.
#1. is billed for $20,000.00 and must pay that.
#2. is also billed for $20,000.00 But he has 80/20 coverage, so he pays $4000.00. Does his insurance company pay the remaining $16,000.00? NO, they have a contract with the hospital where they agreed that surgery is worth $8000.00. so the patient pays 20% of RETAIL, $4000.00 and the insurance pays 80% of WHOLESALE, $6400.00.
#3. The Government has a schedule of benefits list and allows a certain sum for each treatment. The $20,000.00 Retail price means nothing to the Government. For the particular surgery they have a price of $2500.00. A person with 80/20 coverage [like Medicare] would pay $500.00 for this surgery if it was outpatient. Gov. would pay $2000. If the surgery was inpatient [patient was admitted and spent more than 24 hours in hospital] then the Government pays a flat rate for the admitting diagnosis. Patient pay a preset deductible only. No 80/20.

Does the system need overhaul? YES, YES, Does it need more Government NO, NO!!

Fix, not replace.

Your Cobra has bad plugs and wires. Replace the Cobra or get a tune up?

My insurance works very similar to what you posted as the government plan. I work for Samsung and we are Self Insured. We use the Cigna PPO network for in and out of coverage, but Cigna is not the actual insurance provider. Samsung pays Cigna an annual fee to use their services. Samsung pays all the bills and our co-pay is 10% of the agreed upon price (wholesale not retail). Just pointing out that there are variations in the 3 listed above.