Who will read the Health Care Bill ??

[KevinW]

Originally Posted by 427sharpe

Kevin; welcome to the debate. As I am sure you might have noticed, sometimes tempers flare a bit, but I am sure intentions are pure. I quoted 2 bits of text above that are central to the debate here, I think. We have the best track record for innovation and technological advancement. Agreed.
The second bit is telling...I emboldened the part of interest.
I don't want the 'best a tax based system can offer'..I want the best I can afford, period. The problem from here is that 'the best tax based system' requires the intrusion of the government into healthcare. From our perspective the government is absolutely unequipped to administer trash collection, much less life or death decisions. While it can be argued that both sides have some merit, after living with our governments intrusions for a lifetime I believe unequivocally that the negatives outweigh any and all positives for this type of system by a vast margin. This belief is confirmed by even a casual examination of our one government run healthcare system; the Veterans Administration Hospitals. I am sure there are plenty of horror stories at google-tip for you.
Thank you for participating!

Thanks for the post, and as i said earlier, happy to stand corrected wherever i am factually wrong. I completely agree with the problems associated with state-centralisation of resources (or centralisation of anything else for that matter). As i said before, our system aint perfect by a long way. And i completely understand the desire to purchase the best care you can afford - the same is available in the uk - we have a variety of different private hospitals and private wings within nhs hospitals for those wishing to pay privately, and a variety of insurance/privately funded/ employer-funded schemes that fund these - so in parts, maybe not that different.

Three parts i'm still unclear about from the posts:

- care is never denied, but this seems to mainly refer to trauma, RTAs etc. (quite possible i missed something). The stories we here on this side is when insurance schemes run out of funding for the complicated follow-ups - long terms meds/dressings, repeat chemo drugs, need for home-based oxygen long term, the kind of thing needed for chronic conditions. This is the part that really costs, regardless of funding mechanism, and something which is really hard to set up a realistic cost estimate for a particular individual in advance.

- i beleive you need FDA approval for any procedure/treatment before reimbursement can be authorised? again, correct me if im wrong. but i beleive there are a lot of times that fda is very slow to authorise this (eg cardiac PET scans). This represents, i think, a similar impediment to access to state of the art care as our own 'NICE' institution, which has taken a huge wrap for the apparant random way it decides on authorized treatments, and is one of the sources of the problems in some of the cases posted above.

- how is provision made for those without the ability to pay for the best? do they still get the best the us has to offer?

Id be interested to read any comments on this aspect. and let me add im not here to wave the 'state control' flag or suggest the us should adopt a sate-funded system - its none of my business, im a foreginer. but england was mentioned in the rhetoric, so i decided to pitch in and try and add a little balance.

Kevin

- and, just to respond to the man with the 'socialist' issues, here is a link to my gallery on the UK cobraclub website. I am a well known UK member, same user name as here.

http://www.cobraclub.com/gallery/sho...php/photo/5329 (car riding a little high at the time)
lots of other pics there. (in fact car sold on Fri to make way for a more authentic project with FE + Toploader box)

[cobra de capell]

Interesting questions, but let's face it - our health care system is not perfect, but it appears to be a lot better than the British system, especially in the areas that are covered by your questions - so why question our system?

While Congress and the Administration are scrambling to draft a catastrophic overhaul of our healthcare system, now more than ever is the time to step back and take a look at how citizens have fared in other countries under the guise of "free" healthcare.

Government-run healthcare systems in other countries are a painful example of how good intentions can produce dire results. Canadian, British, and European government-run health systems delay and ration care for citizens, limit access to cutting-edge diagnostic services and medications, and result in poor quality medical care, all while costs skyrocket.

It is no secret that there are tragically long waiting periods for patients to receive treatment in Canada and Great Britain. According to the National Center for Policy Analysis, 827,429 Canadians are awaiting some type of procedure, while 1.8 million people in England await hospital admission or outpatient treatment. At one point, waiting periods were so bad in Canada, that in 2005 Canadian citizens, fed up with being prohibited by law from seeking private care, took the matter to the highest court in Canada.

The high court found in favor of the plaintiffs, stating: "The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public healthcare system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public healthcare. The evidence also demonstrates that the prohibition against private health insurance and its consequence of denying people vital healthcare result in physical and psychological suffering that meets a threshold test of seriousness."

In an attempt to avoid long waiting periods in Great Britain, the National Health Service (NHS) instituted "targets" using a carrot and stick approach with hospitals that have further exacerbated the decline of quality healthcare for all Britons.

This month the Daily Telegraph reported that emergency room patients suspected of having cancer are forced to the back of the line. These sometimes critical emergency patients do not "count" towards the targets as do other cancer patients referred by GPs and are therefore subjected to longer and often painful waiting periods.

This past spring the Daily Telegraph cited a report by Britain's Healthcare Commission regarding the conditions at Staffordshire hospitals where between 400 and 1200 more patients died than expected during a three year period. According to the Daily Telegraph the investigation found "overstretched and poorly trained nurses who turned off equipment because they did not know how to work it, newly qualified doctors left to care for patients recovering from surgery at night, patients left for hours in soiled bedclothes, reception staff expected to judge how seriousness of patients arriving at A&E (emergency rooms), patients left without food or drink, others who received the wrong medication or none at all, blood and faeces left on lavatories and floors, and doctors diverted away from seriously ill patients in order to treat minor ones who were in danger of breaching the four hour waiting time target."

Snip....

The elderly, obese and those with unhealthy lifestyles also have the propensity to be denied treatment in Great Britain, according to a survey by Doctor magazine cited by the Daily Telegraph. According to the survey, British doctors are "calling for NHS treatment to be withheld from patients who are too old or who lead unhealthy lives." According to the Daily Telegraph

Snip.....

If you are old and have cancer, you are even worse off under the British healthcare system. According to a report cited by the Daily Mail, 15,000 elderly die each year unnecessarily from cancer because focus is directed mainly to patients under 75 years of age.

Those under the age of 75 diagnosed with cancer, don't fare much better. According to The Times, in 2005 bureaucratic red tape denied over 20 licensed cancer treatments to British cancer patients, with another 23 treatments awaiting appraisal. These included treatments for breast, colon, bone marrow and lung cancer as well as non-Hodgkins lymphoma and brain tumors. Such delays can last as long as three years.

Snip.....

Because of increasing costs, British cancer patients are also denied more effective cancer-fighting drugs. In 2008 The Times highlighted the story of a 68 year old man with kidney cancer seeking to purchase a more effective drug out of pocket. He was told that if he privately purchased the drug, which promised two times the survival rate than the one administered by the government, the government would drop his healthcare coverage. The man purchased the drug anyway and is now no longer able to receive follow-up tests, treatment, etc. Another 71 year old cancer patient opted for the same thing, and was subsequently billed by the NHS £11,500 for his medical care after he was dropped by the government system. Only after the media publicized the incident did the NHS rescind the bill.

Snip....


Posted July 20,2009
http://newsblaze.com/story/200907201.../topstory.html

Yes, you were a Cobra owner and about to be one again, but the the public health system in England just want old people to die and sick people to go away - we don't want that system here.

[Dan40]

Update, RE: denied care. If a person presents at an ER with a minor problem, say a sprained ankle. The hospital is allowed to refer them to a local doc or clinic. The "poor" that use ER's as their family doctor, KNOW VERY well how the system works. If at ANY point a hospital person would say, "This is not an emergency, you should go to a local Doctor." The person knowing the system, simply says, "I have chest pains too.~" Then the ER MUST do a complete cardiac workup. BY law. So they just treat the ankle, or headache, or cut finger, or bloody nose. Much cheaper than doing the expensive and time and resource consuming cardiac exam.

[cobra de capell]

and in addition to that, lots of poor people are on Medicaid - I'm thinking that we have it covered, no reform is necessary - only some tweaking.....

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by 4RE KLR

Isn't it ashamed that our legislators will not even agree to READ the bill before signing it into law.

http://www.letfreedomringusa.com/pledge-to-read


We should vote all their a$$es out of office.

Steve,

I think many legislators will read the bill, or at least have staff browse through it. It is unlikely that liberals will sign onto the conservative website you referenced, or have much to do with Fox news. And I suppose several conservative legislators may sign the petition without really reading it any more thoroughly than average, since it looks to be a partisan public sensation effort more than anything.

The other day, I got the below in my email, from a workplace acquaintance. I have the same insurance, and the guy lives about ten miles away.

"Considering everything I have been through, and the hell my insurance company (United Health Care) put me in by refusing payments for cancer care,heart attacks, surgeries, ambulance rides, hospitalization to withdraw from 4 years of hydromorphone shots given for pain (here, St. Alexius when United Health Care refused payment, escorted me out with their security people and put me out on the street with nothing other than my hospital pajamas to wear as my clothes had been taken home to launder). This incident by the way cost me close to $11,000.00 and was the straw that broke the camels back, forcing me to sell my home as I couldn't pay both the hospital and my mortgage without going through a bankruptcy. So, I now live in a mobilehome after 41 years of hard work, and thanks to huge hospital bills which insurance refused to pay because it was "above what was REASONABLE AND CUSTOMARY", my 401k money is gone, my home is gone, my equity in my home was used to purchase a 29 year old trailer house to allow me to pay off St. Alexius without bankruptcy.

That this crap can happen in this country is unbelievable and NOT RIGHT.What astonishes me is that people JUST LIKE ME believe that we should not go to universal healthcare like every other country in the world has. NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE IN THE GOOD OLD USA WHERE THE RICH ARE KINGS AND THE REST OF US ARE LIED INTO BELIEVING THAT WE DON'T DESERVE WHAT EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS, AND THAT WE HAVE THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD. WHAT A GOD DAMNED JOKE!

The happiest day of my life was when I finally went on Medicare even though I now have to pay $300.00 a month in supplemental insurance ... At least my bills are paid with no trouble, no hassles, no questions! Medicare is the best insurance I have ever had bar none, and I thought the railroad provided us with good coverage. What a joke, United Health Care denied EVERY claim. I know that is their business model, as they hope to avoid or minimize payment, and to prolong the unavoidable payments as long as they can. They simply don't care how sick you are and could care less when the hospitals and doctors are hounding you for payments they should be making. I believe they honestly hope you pay in desperation so they don't have to.

I hope you take the time to watch these PBS video's. The news media everywhere else is failing us miserably, and if you watch FOX or CNN all you are getting is insurance company talking points! Be patient, they are large files and may take a moment or two to load, but are well worth watching! I have been getting all sorts of viral emails with republican talking points against universal healthcare, and we all owe it to ourselves and our children to at least be informed honestly on the issue. These videos tell it like it is! I have been through it, and I know how bad insurance companies can be even when you believe you have good coverage! Cancer CAN AND DOES BANKRUPT A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH INSURANCE ..... IT KILLS THOUSANDS EVERY YEAR WHO DON'T HAVE INSURANCE, AND THAT IS A FACT!

( http://www.webegeek.net/links2/Cigna...ournalPBS.html )

( http://www.webegeek.net/links2/BillM...nglepayer.html )"

God, I wish McCain had gotten in. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

Wes

...

[4RE KLR]

Originally Posted by Dan40

Could be that one of the laws they already passed without reading, makes it illegal to read a bill before passing it. 'Vote' has been replaced by 'passed'.

ALL, D, R or I that vote for any bill without reading it should not only not be reelected but should be impeached and sent home, FOREVER, for malfeasance.



Was that close 'nuff to your topic???

Great Dan, Thanks.

I suppose I just don't understand why the people we vote into office do not take the time to read what they sign into law. It is frustrating to say the least.

[4RE KLR]

Wes,
I am not arguing that the new law would be a good thing or a bad thing. Yea, sure I see the benefits of the plan, and well yea, I see (or at least I think I see) what the Dems are trying to accomplish.

My problem is that I really don't think they will read it, in its final copy before signing it into law. OK, sure, they don't have time to read every single Bill. BS I say, if they don't have time to read it them they shouldn't sign it.

OK, They have staff to read it and give them a brief. I really have a problem with that as well. Here is why. How does the staffer know, what was discussed prior to the write-up? They don't. So, if something was added in the final write-up that was not discussed, then it would get signed into law.

OK, How big a deal can that be? I think it could be huge. We have enough bailouts and pork programs now with-out some more thrown into this bill to appease or entice someone into signing it.

I just think if they don't have the time to read it, in its entirety, then they don't have time to be our legislators and we should run them out of town on a rail.

Again just my .02.

[Art Burtt]

A buddy sent me a copy of the House bill ,it's over 1,000 pages long, I tried reading it but it's mostly "legal speak", whuch makes no sense at all. I understand there are other versions of the bill,so which one will they vote on? Most of them admit they haven't read it?? I find it interesting that on page 420 lines 13-15 the govt, will specify which doctors can write an end to life order WTF? On pg. 430 lines 11-15 Govt, will decide what level of treatment you will recieve at end of life. double WTF?? I'd say not good news for us "old" guts!!

[4RE KLR]

Art,
I was just reading it as well. Talk about confusing as all get out.

I suppose if your not from an "underepresented group" your screwed.

There is no way they will read this thing!

[4RE KLR]

Here is a direct link to the Bill.

If it works.

http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/1...ext-071409.pdf

[427sharpe]

Really whats out there now is just a mashup of everything anybody in DC could dream up to stick in this beast. What will be interesting is what any FINAL version (agreed to by both houses) will look like. I have made it thru the whole thing and there is enough in there to scare the sh*t out of me.
And no, 95% of them won't read that one either! We ought to put in a trick question like they used to do on college essays..."If you vote for this and don't call 1-800-YOU-DUPE you agree to resign your seat in congress and all privileges attached thereto forever." I wonder who could get it added on....

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by 427sharpe

Really whats out there now is just a mashup of everything anybody in DC could dream up to stick in this beast. What will be interesting is what any FINAL version (agreed to by both houses) will look like. I have made it thru the whole thing and there is enough in there to scare the sh*t out of me.
And no, 95% of them won't read that one either! We ought to put in a trick question like they used to do on college essays..."If you vote for this and don't call 1-800-YOU-DUPE you agree to resign your seat in congress and all privileges attached thereto forever." I wonder who could get it added on....

427,

Trick question?

Best suggestion, yet!

I think you hit Steve's original point exactly.

Wes

...

[Roscoe]

Some points from the bill:

If you have health care now you are grandfathered in. You carrier cannot write new insurance coverage for anyone. Once the bill goes into law anyone without insurance must take it or get fined.

It covers illegals

Denys or restricts treatment for elderly.

Will have access to you bank accounts for electronic withdrawals; also access to your financials.

There's much more in this bill to scare the BeJesus out of anyone.

Roscoe

[Ron61]

Simply put this bill is a disaster to anyone except Congress who is exempt from it. I believe they are getting close to constitutional problems when they start forcing all people into a socialized program and taking their money without consent to cover illegals who won't pay anything. The fine if you don't take it is a farce as they will take the money anyway. It amounts to nothing more than a vote buying scheme as the seniors will still have very limited coverage but they will have to pay for it. I guess that is what Obama meant when he said they are a drain on society and should be prepared to take the pain instead of being treated as people in health care.

Ron

[Roscoe]

The questioner's mother needed a pacemaker. But she was 100 years old. And though her doctor said she needed a pacemaker to go on, an arrhythmia specialist declined to do it because of her age and, like a government bureaucrat would, by reading her file rather than seeing her. When the arrhythmia specialist actually saw her in person - at her doctor's insistence - he changed his mind about the level of risk and went ahead. As the questioner put it, he did so when he saw "her joy of life."

Her question is essentially about care for the elderly, the removal of personal care and the weight of impending additional impersonal bureaucracy under Obama's government health care takeover plan. His answer is a plate of spaghetti. With a side of painkillers.

Question: "Outside the medical criteria for prolonging the life of someone who is elderly, is there any consideration that can be given for a certain spirit, a certain joy of living, or quality of life; or is it just a medical cut off at a certain age?"

President Obama: "Yeah, we're not gonna solve every difficult problem in terms of end of life care. A lot of that is going to have to be we as a culture and a society making better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that is not making anybody's mom better that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what, maybe this isn't gonna help. Maybe you're better off not taking the surgery, but taking the painkiller."

[Roscoe]

[Dan40]

With the Global Warming problems, will there be enough ice floes to put us old people on after the Health Care bill passes?????????

[Ron61]

Dan,

I thought they were going to claim Global Warming as the cause of aging. It has been blamed for everything else so far.

Ron

[4RE KLR]

I REALLY like the trick question idea.

OK,
Let's take that one step further and say what really does happen in these massive spending bills. Come one, that is what it really is, it is just described to us Dumb Taxpayers (yea, right) as a health care plan.

Lets say on page 937 for example it states that "All Americans, are now indebted to Barney Frank(s) fir one million dollars a year for the remainder of his life. If He should predecease you, then the funds are payable to his estate"

Sound stupid? Yea, OK I agree.

But how many Americans know that a certain kind of beans have to be served in the White House cafeteria every Thursday because someone slipped it in as a line item before a bill got signed into law over 100 years ago!

There is no way they'll read it.


I also agree that this is a first draft and a wish list.

[4RE KLR]

Her is another problem I have with it (among many)

In America, there are whole families living under bridges, in State Parks, in their cars and so on. But according to this health care plan they have to buy health care, BEFORE they locate housing or be fined. They do not have a place to live but will be forced to buy health acre first.

What is wrong with that? Are you kidding me?

"Oh, why yes sir, we have Health Insurance and it gets paid before my children have food on the table. I am sorry there is no funds left to put a roof over their little heads"

____

May I help you?

Yes, I need to get my car inspected.

Ok, I need proof of health care......



It could happen!