Whitehouse “snitch on your neighbor” project (ObamaCare)

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Dan40

Health care for poor parents and poor babies is FREE. So ZERO babies are going to die from lack of health care.

Ummmm - hello - who exactly do you think pays for 'FREE'? Do you think it might be the same people who do not want to pay for 'FREE' now? If we add more people to 'FREE', then we have to also add more people to 'PAY'. Or we have to make the people in 'PAY' pay more. Which group are you in? If we cannot afford to pay any more then 'FREE' will dry up, and they will start to move to the 'DIE' group.

Originally Posted by Dan40

Yes there are people that are struggling financially. I won't even ask why you think THEY are not the ones MOST responsible for that. Instead I'll ask that if it is OK to preform an invasive operation on a woman to KILL a baby. Why is not OK to preform an invasive operation on her and tie her tubes? The ligation is a less serious procedure than the abortion. And CURES that problem and a host of others.

Ummm - where did I say that they are not responsible? There are a lot of good and educated people out of work right now, but that is the exception rather than the rule - and a completely different thread. I am in favour of forced tubal ligation for people that abuse the system, and I have said so here in this forum before.

Originally Posted by Dan40

They do NOT wait at all! ER's are loaded with poor with sniffles, cuts, bruises, aches, pains, same as any Doc's office. There are and have been for decades, County Health services that do routine check ups and preventive care for the poor That's part of why I state the FACT that the liberals are lying all the time. They KNOW that coverage is there and has been there, but they want the general public to think there is a crisis, when NO such crisis exists.

They do not wait because they pay nothing for their care. Waynes comment about Canada is the same - there is no penalty for showing up at the ER for a hangnail. For some people, though, even $5 will be too much, and they will wait until their finger is going to fall off just to save the $5. I do not know how to make this work so that people only go when they really do need legit care. I do my best to self-diagnose and evaluate before going to the doc, but I also have a high degree of confidence in my ability to troubleshoot. Others will only be happy when 5 doctors tell them that they are not terminal.

Originally Posted by Dan40

Your 3rd. para.
That has been the routine for well more than a quarter of a century, maybe half a century.

It's a routine that needs to change if we are going to control costs.

Originally Posted by Dan40

Your 4th. para.
All our health care system needs is cost control. Access is at 100% and has been. And our US health care IS the very finest in the world.
WHO says its not. WHO is funded by member GOVERNMENTS. Many of which OWN their countries health care delivery system. How often do you think the WHO bites the hand that feeds them? hint, the answer is 0.
WHO ACCEPTS WHATEVER statistics a country reports to them. [along with the funding check!] Have every country report their health stats the EXACT same way that our NON-Government AMA does and we would be far and away the EASY winner. Just one phase of the WHO's report should explain all. They HEAVILY weigh their rankings on "FAIRNESS" of health care. Well ours isn't the fairest, the rich do get better care. AND ALWAYS WILL, everywhere, but in other, socialized medicine, countries it "officially" doesn't happen.

I agree that we need to manage costs better. We need to encourage insurers to work on efficiency, eliminate redundancy, and allow for greed of big pharma, but better manage the excessive greed. Care for the rich will always be better than that for the poor. I have no problem with that. However, 50-60% of bankruptcies (before the current economic mess) were caused by catastrophic medical costs for a family member. I think we can do better, but I am not exactly sure how without the rich paying for everyone elses care (which I do not want to happen). I take WHO stats (and pretty much everyones) with a grain of salt - the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Like I said - Obama has the wrong plan.

Steve

[Dan40]

"Like I said - Obama has the wrong plan."

Steve


Common ground!

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

Thank you for that thoughtful reply.

Wayne

I guess as a Canadian you just don't understand. Both of my grandfathers fought in WW2 to free Europe, my father fought in Vietnam and I fought in the Middle East to free Kuwait. Both of my grandfathers were wounded, and I have service connected health problems that I will live with the rest of my life. I have friends that returned in a box. I think we as Americans have given a lot to this world that seems to hate us most of the time. My.02

[cobra de capell]

OK Class time for a little visual test:

I am going to show you two pictures, please tell us which picture is of a PROFESSIONAL Group of Protestors (A.K.A. a Rent A MOB) and which picture is of a "grass roots" group of Protestors:

Picture A:



Picture B:



Take your time and really study the pics... ;-)

[cobra bill]

Both groups are! what do I win?

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

Both groups are! what do I win?

You would love for that to be true, but the first group is AMERICANS being involved in their nations direction. Acting as individuals and voicing their own minds. No one is paying them to say or do anything. They are motivated by concern for our country.

The second group is a gang of organized AND paid criminal thugs that use criminal acts [of which they HAVE been convicted] and intimidation to frighten people into NOT voting against ACORN's agenda. They are for what they are paid to be for and against what they are paid to be against.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by VRM

Wayne, you did say nominal. I think my co-pay is $25 now. I would like to figure out some way to keep the welfare types from going all the time since there is no charge to them.

Steve

Even if there was a copay, the ER can't refuse seeing any patient, so if the person doesn't have the money, they still are cared for, and then billed later, which they will never pay anyways. The co-pay thing only works for outpatient services, where if the person doesn't have the cash, they are not then cared for.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by VRM

However, 50-60% of bankruptcies (before the current economic mess) were caused by catastrophic medical costs for a family member. I think we can do better, but I am not exactly sure how without the rich paying for everyone elses care (which I do not want to happen). I take WHO stats (and pretty much everyones) with a grain of salt - the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

Like I said - Obama has the wrong plan.

Steve

I hear that quoted all the time, but I haven't seen that happen once, presented in that way. However, what usually occurs is that the bread earner becomes sick, and immediately or eventually becomes unable to work, and then loses their job/insurance while still stacking up medical bills. At some point they file bankruptcy to wipe the slate clean, and eventually go on medicare/medicaid. It's not the medical bills themselves that cause the bankruptcy, it's the loss of their job and their health insurance that leads to mounting bills and bankruptcy. That's what I see, over and over.

[Excaliber]

I'm not sure I see the difference in a guy loosing his job because he is sick and filing bankruptcy later because of his medical bills. In the end, it was the medical bills that took his house, his savings, ruined his credit.

It might not have come to such a end if he could have received decent medical care immediatly following the loss of his job/insurance. Once the insurance goes away you may wait on the Doctors until your really really sick. Then it's really really gonna cost you.

Not all medical care is free to the poor and hospitals can, will and have refused treatment. When the cancer clinics for the poor shut down because their out of funding the hospital isn't going to cover your chemotherapy. It's happening right now all over the country, people ARE dieing from lack of funded medical care. SOMETHING needs to be done!

[mdmull]

I can't conceive of being so poor that I would wait until my finger fell off before paying $5.
I used to be a lib (young & foolish) so I can imagine being so stupid that I'd wait until my finger fell off before paying anything.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I hear that quoted all the time, but I haven't seen that happen once, presented in that way. However, what usually occurs is that the bread earner becomes sick, and immediately or eventually becomes unable to work, and then loses their job/insurance while still stacking up medical bills. At some point they file bankruptcy to wipe the slate clean, and eventually go on medicare/medicaid. It's not the medical bills themselves that cause the bankruptcy, it's the loss of their job and their health insurance that leads to mounting bills and bankruptcy. That's what I see, over and over.

http://www.shieldofachilles.net/2007...lf-of-all.html

Posted URL provides the real scope on the fact that medical BK's are way less than 1/2 of BK's - the 1/2 comes from a flawed study by die-hard liberals.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I'm not sure I see the difference in a guy loosing his job because he is sick and filing bankruptcy later because of his medical bills. In the end, it was the medical bills that took his house, his savings, ruined his credit.

It might not have come to such a end if he could have received decent medical care immediatly following the loss of his job/insurance. Once the insurance goes away you may wait on the Doctors until your really really sick. Then it's really really gonna cost you.

Not all medical care is free to the poor and hospitals can, will and have refused treatment. When the cancer clinics for the poor shut down because their out of funding the hospital isn't going to cover your chemotherapy. It's happening right now all over the country, people ARE dieing from lack of funded medical care. SOMETHING needs to be done!

So, we all need to step up and pay for unlimited treatment? Why not just liberals? Does the Constitution grant fully-paid medical treatment for all?

[Wayne Maybury]

Originally Posted by SP01715

I guess as a Canadian you just don't understand. Both of my grandfathers fought in WW2 to free Europe, my father fought in Vietnam and I fought in the Middle East to free Kuwait. Both of my grandfathers were wounded, and I have service connected health problems that I will live with the rest of my life. I have friends that returned in a box. I think we as Americans have given a lot to this world that seems to hate us most of the time. My.02

As a Canadian I do get it. While I never served in the military, I have many relatives that did serve. Except for Viet Nam and Iraq, the Canadian military has been right there beside the US, Britian, Austrailia, and the other allies in WWI, WWII, Korea, etc. While many people in the Middle East do hate the US, Canadians certainly are not to be included as you insinuate. We have much more in common than we have different.

I respect you and all service men and women that fight for our countries and make sacrifices for the freedom that we enjoy. Unfortunately far too many Canadians have been coming home in boxes from Afganistan lately.

Wayne

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by Wayne Maybury

As a Canadian I do get it. While I never served in the military, I have many relatives that did serve. Except for Viet Nam and Iraq, the Canadian military has been right there beside the US, Britian, Austrailia, and the other allies in WWI, WWII, Korea, etc. While many people in the Middle East do hate the US, Canadians certainly are not to be included as you insinuate. We have much more in common than we have different.

I respect you and all service men and women that fight for our countries and make sacrifices for the freedom that we enjoy. Unfortunately far too many Canadians have been coming home in boxes from Afganistan lately.

Wayne

Canada is a very liberal state with tons of liberal citizens - that's the problem.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

http://www.shieldofachilles.net/2007...lf-of-all.html

Posted URL provides the real scope on the fact that medical BK's are way less than 1/2 of BK's - the 1/2 comes from a flawed study by die-hard liberals.

That absolutely explains exactly what I see, in reality.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I'm not sure I see the difference in a guy loosing his job because he is sick and filing bankruptcy later because of his medical bills. In the end, it was the medical bills that took his house, his savings, ruined his credit.

There actually is a big difference. I never heard of someone's home being taken away from them because of medical bills, that is, a hospital or doctor putting a lien on somebodys home resulting in foreclosure. Although not paying medical bills may hurt your credit, you won't have your house taken from you. In contrast, if you don't pay your mortgage or pay your taxes, property, income, etc,, there will be a foreclosure, sheriff's sale, etc, where your preoperty will be taken from you. To me that's a big difference.

And, many times, the sickness is an "injury" resulting in disabilty, inability to work, although the same illness/injury does not always result in permanent disabilty in all people. Why is that the case?

Originally Posted by Excaliber

It might not have come to such a end if he could have received decent medical care immediatly following the loss of his job/insurance. Once the insurance goes away you may wait on the Doctors until your really really sick. Then it's really really gonna cost you.

Sometimes you can't fix what was broken, no matter what, no matter how good or bad the care was, as determined usually by someone who doesn't know what they're doing. If you don't have a lot of assets, you can't lose much. I heard that 1/4 of US home-owners currently owe more than what their house is worth, and will increase it 1/3 possibly.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Not all medical care is free to the poor and hospitals can, will and have refused treatment. When the cancer clinics for the poor shut down because their out of funding the hospital isn't going to cover your chemotherapy. It's happening right now all over the country, people ARE dieing from lack of funded medical care. SOMETHING needs to be done!

Hospitals can't refuse to provide treatment once a patient is admitted, and if they come through the ER, and if the patient is sick enough, they have to be admitted. It's also unlawful for any hopital to "dump" (transfer) a patient to another facility because of reimbursement issues. However, once in the hospital, some doctors are not obligated to treat all patients, see all consults, and can pick and choose for whatever reason. But, I've have not ever heard or witnessed a doctor or hospital denying life and death medical care leading to the demise of a patient. Although you may not be able to get medical care at all facilities in your area, there has to be one or two that will provide care, a non-profit teaching institution.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

SOMETHING needs to be done!

There are actually alot of things that could be done, but its nothing that Obama (lawyer) would ever approve of. Wonder why.

[cobra bill]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

Canada is a very liberal state with tons of liberal citizens - that's the problem.

So why is that a problem for you? Are they an evil empire? Are they invading other countries and enslaving there population? Are they cruel to their own people? Is it just one big welfare country? So let's see because they take care of each other and live and work harmoniously with themselves and the rest of the world that makes them bad people? you have a serious mental problem, and should really get help for that!

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I'm not sure I see the difference in a guy loosing his job because he is sick and filing bankruptcy later because of his medical bills. In the end, it was the medical bills that took his house, his savings, ruined his credit.

It might not have come to such a end if he could have received decent medical care immediatly following the loss of his job/insurance. Once the insurance goes away you may wait on the Doctors until your really really sick. Then it's really really gonna cost you.

Not all medical care is free to the poor and hospitals can, will and have refused treatment. When the cancer clinics for the poor shut down because their out of funding the hospital isn't going to cover your chemotherapy. It's happening right now all over the country, people ARE dieing from lack of funded medical care. SOMETHING needs to be done!

A person does not lose their house, or car, or have their credit ruined in a medical bill bankruptcy. In a regular overextended bankruptcy, they do have their credit ruined---WELL before the bankruptcy. If a person files due to medical bills and pays their other bills even tho they are wiped away in the bankruptcy. Their credit is fine. Savings go,,yes. I should pay to protect someone else's savings?

If a hospital refused critical care to anyone, a good lawyer would soon own that hospital. The poor guy would still be screwed, but his lawyer would do fine. That is nature's way. It was that way when we ran around with clubs, it is still that way today, and it will ALWAYS be that way. The liberals always DREAM that they can change the basic nature of the world. They cannot.

Something needs to be done??? Let the poor DIE. It is the fiscally and society prudent thing to do. Saves money and improves the gene pool.

[cobra de capell]

Originally Posted by cobra bill

So why is that a problem for you? Are they an evil empire? Are they invading other countries and enslaving there population? Are they cruel to their own people? Is it just one big welfare country? So let's see because they take care of each other and live and work harmoniously with themselves and the rest of the world that makes them bad people? you have a serious mental problem, and should really get help for that!

Liberals are the same no matter where they live. Although, they don't seem to be libtards (you know what that's like) so they aren't the scum of the earth.

[Excaliber]

...not even worth commenting on, radical right wing nut cases for the most part who have no clue.

[cobra de capell]

A combative President Obama speaking in McLean, Virginia yesterday where he once again reminded everyone "I am the President," and said he does not want who he called "the people who created the mess" to "do a lot of talking." He said arrogantly, "I don't mind cleaning up after them, but don't do a lot of talking."

WTF?