Superformance Brakes (or not)

[thudmaster]

It appears to be an isolated insident. My spf is number 2472 and I have no problem what so ever with my brakes.
Wanab5150 you better have them fixed before the Sonoma run on April 19th with the Nor Cal Cobra Club if you are coming.

[tcrist]

One of the first things the guy that set up my brakes wanted to know was the specs of my motor so he could see if I needed a seperate vacuum booster canister with its own pump motor. My motor is a tiny 351. He wanted to be sure that it would create enough vacuum for my brakes to work correctly. He has been the street rod buissness fo over 30 years so I guess that he knows what he is doing when I comes to this. I have Wilwood 4 piston calipers all of the way around with a Wilwood master with a stock ford vacuum booster. I hope that once I get this thing on the road that it stops correctly.

Terry

[CHANMADD]

I would say that this sounds like an incorrect size master cylinder.Like Madmax says brakes and the braking system is NOT Rocket science. Many older cars never had boosters and yet could stop perfectly well,albeit with a little more pedal pressure.Also how are the brake lines run? How are they split from the master ,front and rear?

[madmaxx]

I do not think anyone can argue with this "A $70000 SPF SHOULD NOT come with brakes that do not work." This is exactly why you buy a SPF, you have an entire team working to address and correct any issues as well as an impecable reputation. I have no doubt anyone that has an issue will get it resolved, it is not by luck that SPF has been in business for 14? years and year over year sales growing each year.

Now that being said this very well can be an isolated incident and that is the end of it, find the defective part and replace. Initial evaluation of mine by someone who has driven as many SPF's as anyone in the world were they appear good to him and mine is new enough I have not seen yet.

I do remeber on my last cobra, not a SPF when I would stop first thing in the morning I would have to crush the brake pedal due to the car stalling since it did not have a choke and I was hitting the brake and clutch at the same time. I installed an automatic choke and no more issues. So vacuum does play an important role.

Are the new brakes wilwood or are they a different make? I am still confused is it just a rear brake issue or are all 4 brakes not working. I heard the rear caliber was changed so I assumed that is where the issue is.

[Maurice Johnson]

My comment about the brakes was one of incredulity that this would get by SPF without being detected. The wheel bearing thing was "tongue in cheek". I have driven an SPF, with this same engine,through some twisties in NE georgia, and came away elated from the experience. Hence my quandry, SPF roller? or the experience of building my own.

[CSCHWER]

I have car # 2682 with marginal brakes. I did move the vacuum booster hose to the #4 runner on the intake and got a little improvement. I'm just trying to decide what to do next. I'm probably going brake shopping shortly. Oh, Roush 427 R T/W.
Chet

[ekrupa2]

#2632 w/ Roush 402 SR TW. No issues with the brakes at all.

[Thieleng]

In my limited knowledge of the issue it appears that the problem is occurring in the later edition SPF's with the emergency brake calipers. The change over from the previous calipers has created the "problem". My SPF #2378 has had no problems with brake failure or fade even while tracking the car. I am understanding that the old caliper was a four piston unit whereas the new rear units are a single piston. It appears that a vacuum booster helps alleviate the situation but it is not as good as what was supplied previously. A number of people are working on this issue to come up with a resolution.

[madmaxx]

I am getting the impression another caliper change has occured since 2378 but I have no idea if that is accurate, does anyone know for sure?

[wanab5150]

Attached below is the E-mail I originally sent out to upper management which has circulated through the entire Superformance world!!! Again, I would like to acknowledge all of the positive response I have received from all of you Motor Heads as well as the Management at Superformance.
I will mention that Dennis Olthoff sent an e-mail that he has found the Wilwood caliper on my #2769 "deficient". He has tested 3 other Willwood single, double, and the 4 piston from last year. From the e-mail it sounds like the new caliper is 80% Less efficienct than the Non-E-brake replacement unit. His suggestion ....put the old 4 puck and the crappy e-brake back on. I concur! It sounds like Superformance was TRYING to update to a better r.caliper. They constantly up date at Superformance so it's only natural errors will be made. They're still on it!!!
The e-mail in the next post may clear things up a little. tom

[Got the Bug]

#2613 w/ Roush 402SR TW. No brake problems at all.

ekrupa2's West Coast doppelganger.

[wanab5150]

This is the gist of the initial letter... I have obtainted many ,many updates throughout the week and am happy with the responses so far..... I am extreely happy how much effort Superformance and their associates have put into fixing this problem....I will continue to update .............. tom
March 26, 2008
Dynamic Auto West
9728 S. Virginia St. Suite A
Reno, Nevada 89511

Dear Dennis Peck:
I purchased a Superformance Mk 3 in mid October from John Miller at Dynamic Motorsports, Reno. During the waiting process I made frequent visits to talk with John and Steven in the shop next door, (Reno Engine and Drivetrain) where the installation was completed.
During this process I checked with Steven and John regarding any updates that may be made to the newest batch of cars. In approximately December, Steve showed me a new rear “Wilwood” caliper incorporating the emergency brake. Although not looking anything like the front caliper, this was apparently the new “hot setup” for the rear caliper. The unit looked like something from a Chrysler of yesteryear. It was large and had fins running the length of it, but I was advised it worked perfectly.
When my car was delivered, it had an even newer version of the finned caliper that was used for only a few months. This version looked exactly like the front caliper. Same color and shape with “Willwood” engraved on it, and it had the integrated emergency brake. I was told this was the latest version, even newer than the last.
I took possession of the car in early March, and for the most part am very satisfied. There are 3 issues still to be resolved. One, the windshield wipers don’t work because the wires are hanging behind the dash…apparently never hooked up. Two, the speedometer bounces more than 10 MPH at speeds under 50 MPH and bounces more than 20 MPH above 50 MPH. A new cable will remedy this situation. Three, the vehicle has dangerously insufficient brakes. The Speedo and wiper issue were acknowledged by Steven (the installer) and will be repaired as soon as I have time to drive up to Reno. I should state, Steven has bent over backward to accommodate me with any questions or concerns with the car. He will probably be the only person I will let work on the car while I have it, and even if I have to transport the car to Reno.
After I had 450 miles on the car we had a meeting with the Northern States Cobra Club and drove a short 30 miles to breakfast. As we arrived at the location the lead car apparently slowed rather fast causing a chain reaction stop with the other cars. No one came close to a collision, but we all had to brake harder than normal. It was at that time I realized the car did not want to stop and I had to veer to the left of the car in front of me. Again, the car would not stop and that’s with all my 240lbs. behind the pedal.
After the meeting I did a few tests to confirm this was a failure and not a simple adjustment. I did full on stops from 30 mph, 50 mph, and 70 mph with the same results. The brakes will absolutely not lock up (skid) and although the pedal is hard the brakes have a fading feeling. They do not completely go away, but seem to fade to a certain point then will eventually stop the vehicle.
In talking to Steven, he stated he has driven another new (no miles) vehicle and felt a similar sensation. He said he will test the vehicle further and contact me with the results and possibly a solution. He stated he contacted Dynamic Motorsports at their Headquarters and was told they have had no issues with the new caliper or any other braking issues. Steven said he is contacting “Wilwood” attempting to ascertain if they could provide information on the calipers on these cars. He said he would provide the parts numbers to them and see if the front and rear calipers match with the master cylinder and other brake components of the car. Steven did indicate this new caliper is a single puck, down from four, and may have a mis-match with the old front caliper or master calendar. He is guessing at this point.
Let me assure you at Dynamic Motorsports, this is a REAL and dangerous issue. I am writing as I do not feel this is an outside shops (Reno Engine and Drivetrain) responsibility and is the direct Responsibility of Dynamic Motorsports. I will cooperate any way possible to rectify this issue. I do not believe Dynamic Motorsports would intentionally sell a vehicle with this problem.
I should mention that I am a retired Salinas Police Officer of 23 years and conducted hundreds if not thousands of accident investigations during my career. Any fatal or serious injury accident required braking tests on the suspect vehicles. This included technical inspections as well as lock-up skid tests on clean, good grade asphalt with a 70% co-efficient of friction or better. Vehicle weight as well as tire size and tread depth were considered. Although standard braking specifications may not apply to this vehicle, it is sufficiently defective to be considered unsafe and would fail a CHP or PD inspection if tested. Please understand, the above information is only to confirm I am qualified as an expert in safety and am basing my findings on fact, not assumptions.
I will be continuing to attempt to find the source of this issue with the braking system. Please respond as soon as possible.
Tom xxxxxxxxx (xxx)xxx-xxxx / WANAB5150@COMCAST.NET
cc: Dynamicmotorsports@sbcglobal.net
Lance @superformance.com
John Miller Reno Dealership
Steven (Reno Engine and Drivetrain)

[madmaxx]

wanab150,

Thanks for the details and keep the comming!! When did you actually take delivery and how long has SPF been addressing the issue? I look forward to your next update. Did the brakes appear acceptable in the first 450 miles? and gradual degrade or was this the first time you had to hit the brakes hard?

Usually the speedometer will settle down but if it is still acting up at 450 miles than it may need both a new cable and make sure it is routed correctly from the transmission to odometer with no hard bends. I doubt it will ever be steady like a new car.

[CSCHWER]

I'm not sure if the speedometer cable is supplied by SPF or the dealer. Mine was about half a football field too long. Try a NAPA 615-1644 cable. I also replaced the gear on the end of the cable with a 19 tooth one. The gear the dealer supplied made the speedo jump. Believe me on the NAPA cable, I tried 3 before I got one that would not pump oil up the cable.
Chet

[wanab5150]

I didnt test the brakes at all until the "normal stop" inroute to the breakfast with you guys. Stephen has a new cable waiting for me in Reno..As of Tuesday night ....no further E-mails from Superformance! tom

[SPF2245]

I've got 2245 and I've had issues with the brakes, but it was vacuum related (ie low idle RPMs coming to a stop was very difficult to get enough brake pressure). Cheap and easy remedy was bumping the idle RPMs up 150...now I've got enough vacuum to stop yet not too much to cause run-on when I turn it off.

[Woodz428]

The owner of #2694 did an evaluation of his brakes after some of these comments. He says his work superbly and are better than most cars he has driven/drives. The only time he had concerns was when the engine died on hard braking(clutch in) and he lost...his vacuum boost. So this is not apparently a problem with all, or most likely many, cars. I still lean toward a vacuum problem that everyone seems to want to negate.

[wanab5150]

Woods428...Check and let me know if your rear caliper has fins on it (you can see them through the R wheel. OR if you have an e-brake on your drive shaft and NOT on the rear caliper.....tom.

[thudmaster]

Tom, you are welcome to come to my house and look my spf over. It is number 2742.......If you would like to send me a PM and I will give you directions and a phone number...........

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

Woods428...Check and let me know if your rear caliper has fins on it (you can see them through the R wheel. OR if you have an e-brake on your drive shaft and NOT on the rear caliper.....tom.

That was another owners car, I'll have to check with him, but I am sure his has the new style e-brake. It makes little sense to me that IF the rear brakes were problematic that the front ones wouldn't lock up on hard braking...the physics of brakes. Since there is no apparent lock up at any time, I suspect a low vacuum signal. I have yet to see any brake system where one side is non functioning( frozen even) that wouldn't create a lock up on the other side(or end).