Superformance Brakes (or not)

[VintageUpgrades]

Half of the cars that leave our shop have belt driven vacuum pumps installed on them (SPF or otherwise). As far as Roush engines go, we use mostly the SR versions with the TW cam. They produce more vacuum than the R versions. I have not had a problem with the rear calipers in any of their incarnations. The driveshaft e-brake is the only thing that gives us troubles; mostly from customers leaving them on. We are working on a few e-brake improvements. One uses two calipers on the rear rotors, the other uses the Explorer style drum in the rotor. After more R&D I will post some pics.

[madmaxx]

Vintage,

Are you guys changing the rear brakes from what was delivered from the factory? In other words on your newer cars where the ebrake is incorporated into the caliper are you replacing those with a drum or driveshaft type ebrake and different style caliper? I

[VintageUpgrades]

On the cars with the single piston rear, we have not had to do anything. The next car we build has 427R. We will see how it stops with no "fixes", then go from there.

[madmaxx]

Vintage,

You guys have any GT40's in stock?

[VintageUpgrades]

All we have at this time are 2 MKIII rollers. We only order the GT and Daytona when a customer wants one. So far this year , only one Daytona.

[jhwalker]

The owner of SPF2694 does not visit Club Cobra, but is a Superformance Cobra Owners Forum member. He was OK with his note being posted here in its entirety.
Since I also have a Roush 427R in my SPF (2117) to which I added a vacuum device after not liking the low rpm braking, this is a thread of interest to me.

I usually read and learn on my Club Cobra visits, so it is nice to post.
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(the note)
Subject: SPF Brakes Newer Cars

I would like to comment on the brake issue with the newer SPF Roadster. I happen to have a car with just over 1000 miles and about 60-days old, #2694. This is my second SPF Roadster, the first was #855, which I owned, from new, for about six years, it was equipped with Wilwood brakes. After reading the threads about the brakes, I decided I would not take a family member or friend a ride in the car until I did some testing of the brakes. While I do not consider myself to be a professional driver, I have owned and drove race cars, for fifty years, so now you know I am north of 60 in the age department. Not to toot a whistle, but I know what it is to aggressively brake a car from 200 mph to a full stop, several thousand times, of course that was with the aid of a parachute. Have done a little road course, but experience there is limited to a couple days at Summit Point in WV, and a couple days at Sebring, FL, and several weekends at the Gainesville, FL track.

What I did today was to take my car to a private airport and play with the brakes a lot, here are my findings. I would like to say that the brakes perform well in excess of most factory automobiles I have driven over the years. I did hard breaking from 100 mph to zero, at least four times in a short period of time. The brakes generated the normal smell of brakes used to the max, but I did not experience noticeable fade. The method was to come down on the brakes hard but controllable, and when below 50 continue to press harder until I could hear the tires start to complain, but not lock them up. I found that the front to rear balance was good, both front and back tires sounded like they were complaining verbally about the same without either end breaking loose completely. I did the first brake test by dis-engaging the clutch, and of course since I have two four barrels the first response was they spilled over and the engine died, so I guess you know what happens to the vacuum assist when that happens. I did still have good breaking until the vacuum was gone then the brake of course got hard just like it would without the engine running, which was expected, and would be the same with any car. The remaining three times I did this test it was with the clutch engaged until I got down to almost a stop to use the deceleration of the car to generate vacuum, the brakes felt fine. I would like to say that my car does generate vacuum at the lower end of the scale of need, at about 11 pounds, The car has an aggressive roller camshaft, and idles at about 1000 rpm's, and peaks at 7000 rpm's,

I do have an event scheduled to run at Sebring in mid May, so will have more to say after that event. I am however now convinced that the brakes perform at a level that I fear not to take my grand boys a ride with confidence, and maybe even take a couple of neighbors a Cobra ride, if they are dressed appropriately for the summer season, if you know what I mean.
Ken #2694
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James

[wanab5150]

If you have read all the posts regarding the brake issue, you would realize we DO NOT have the same calipers on the rear of our cars thus your car may stop, as it has 4 pot calipers (or PBR calipers) and my car has the new single pot 34mm Wilwood calipers. Dennis Olthoff himself tested these calipers and using a fixed force against the brake pedal with the engine off, (no vacuum) and found them to be MORE THAN 65% less effective in the clamping force on the rotor face than previous versions.
Your car, and the other guys car, either have the older 4 pot Wilwood's with the e-brake not attached at the caliper, or the PBR caliper with the e-brake incorporated in the caliper. It would bug me personally to have bought a Superformance with a set of PBR’s in the rear and Wilwood’s up front. My purchase invoice states my car has 4 pot wildwoods at all 4 corners! But NOOOOOO……it has single pots on the rear. If they worked correctly I would not be so bent!
I received a call from Barry Block (General Mgr. Superformance) today. He acknowledged that there is an issue BUT still says they haven’t figured out whether it’s the vacuum/ vacuum pump issue or the calipers themselves. He said Dennis Olthoff will be receiving several new calipers to try, and will experiment with the vacuum issue with 427R Roush motors. Olthoff already tested Dynalite 4 pot calipers, PBR calipers, Wilwood 41 mm calipers, and Wilwood 34mm calipers…….what’s next?
So….which calipers do you have Wilwood or PBR (finned and look completely different than the front)?
I am convinced that the vacuum issue is a big part of the problem and could be cured with a vacuum reservoir instead of an expensive pump, and do essentially the same thing. I could also BE WRONG!
If Dennis Olthoff wants to replace my rear calipers with a more efficient ones I’m good with that also. After all…Z06 Vette’s only have a single pot in the rear and I could not fault my ’03 Z06. Eight weeks ago Olthoff recognized this problem with the rear caliper and indicated it was the rear caliper back then! I say throw a vacuum canister or vacuum pump on it and see if it works. As it stands now….were not any closer to a solution than we were 8 weeks ago!!! tom

tom

[pooreds]

Great post Tom, I was waiting for that.
Got my car back tonight, hopefully blue smoke issue is solved.
Brake issue is not solved, Stephen tried a vacuum cannister and it made no difference. I've been told to be carefull until there is a solution.
Make sure we hook up on the 19th for the Sonoma trip. ED

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

. Olthoff already tested Dynalite 4 pot calipers, PBR calipers, Wilwood 41 mm calipers, and Wilwood 34mm calipers…….what’s next?


tom

The fact that those many calipers have been tried and still has poor braking says it all, in my mind. If it was the calipers, any one of them should have corrected it.....or at least made it better. Maybe it isn't vacuum related as I suspect, however I doubt that it it is caliper related. I still can't imagine any vehicle with bad calipers in the back NOT locking the front brakes when they are applied hard, IF all other parts of the system work correctly. Once again it's simple physics..if on end isn't working and you apply more pressure, the end that is working would lock up. You haven't mentioned any time when you locked up the front brakes, that alone is suspect.

[madmaxx]

woodsz428 has a good point, "The fact that those many calipers have been tried and still has poor braking says it all", maybe it is not the calipers. So car 2694 has great brakes and 2690 does not from the two previous post, I would assume they have the same brake components.

I agree simple physics is involved, you push hard enough and they should lock unless these have antilock brakes or traction control, LOL!!

[wanab5150]

You have to have read all the posts to get the whole picture. Olthoff did find that the 4 piston Willwood from previous versions (only about 100 cars back) worked great. Its just that it doesn't incorporate an E-brake. The E-brake is a piece of S**t on those calipers so they were trying to update to a caliper with an incorporated E-brake. Mine has that ....If I could stop the car with the E-brake handle I wouldn,t whine so much. But what good is a great E-brake without even marginal rear brakes. Those not familiar with "Poored" above about 3 posts....he has the PBR caliper and well......just read his post about his brakes.

Ed....good to see you got your ride back. A blown gasket beats a blown Roush engine anytime. Now you can get back up to speed (play on words) lol. To bad you cant stop. I just bought a new pair of boots. My new theory is to cut out the floorboard and drag my feet. I'm going to name my shoes "Wilwoods" ! tom

[madmaxx]

I could understand a couple or three weeks to resolve, but "As it stands now….were not any closer to a solution than we were 8 weeks ago!!! is completely unacceptable. I do not know what to suggest in order to expediate a remedy, it appears you have been extremely patient. I feel your pain.

[wanab5150]

Madmaxx....As long as their is progress OR they keep Bull Sh**ing me telling me there is progress, I'll try to be patient. I expect the BS. At least if they are still BS-ing me, they know that I haven't parked in the back of a simi yet!
Speaking of parking.....Maybe I should paint it yellow and park it in front of Dynamic Motor Sports with a sign on it......Hmmmmm. tom

[madmaxx]

"they know that I haven't parked in the back of a simi yet!" I have a feeling if that happened not only would they know it but also 12 jurors, LOL!! In all seriousness (if that is spelled right) do not drive the car until repaired!!

[wanab5150]

Well ...no news other than a call from Dennis Peck stating they're still working on it. I E-mailed Olthopp a few days ago as he was directed by Barry Block (Gen Mgr at Superformance) to find a cure. I just want to hear from Olthopp himself, to see if he knows that he has been designated as the one to come up with the fix...
I've heard from one individual stating his brakes (PBR rears) work perfectly. Olthopp, Block and all the higher ups at Superformance admit the rears are crap and they need to be replaced. It's your call whether you stay with what you have ,or go for the future retro fix. tom

[FOMOCONUT]

Drove #2773 tonight for the first time, put 30 mi. on it. The brakes should be better . I have a three ton pick-up with drum brakes that stops much better Maybe they will get better with a little time.I would expect them to work better, Jerry

[rdorman]

I don't know why in the world they use a vacuum booster on these cars in the first place. SPF can just send me a car and I will design two systems one for the basic cruiser/weekend warrior and one for the racer. I know a former F1 driver that would enjoy filling the left seat and much will change. Of course, I get to keep the car for my time and expense

For the rest of you, listen to Dennis... the guy knows what he is talking about.... and I would suspect he is on the right course.

[Bill Wells]

Rich, the vacuum boosters seem to be needed with the 427R ROUSH engines, not necessarily a SPF problem. And, apparently not all 427R engines ? and NOT the 402R engines . The cam in the 427R seems to cause low boost at low rpm's . Hence causing havoc with the power brake system as rpms decrease . This may be an isolated case not related to that , but others have reported the can as the fix with a 427R as my friend did. Bill

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by rdorman

I don't know why in the world they use a vacuum booster on these cars in the first place.

I read this as asking "why do you need power brakes in a Cobra to begin with?"

[rdorman]

Sorry I wasn't clear Bill. Not suggesting the problem is with SPF alone. Heck, when I bought my car I planned stops with a calendar (not a SPF)! I question putting power assist brakes on these cars period.... particuarlly a vacuum assist. If I was going to spec an assist system for a car that I knew some folks would put some wild engines in... it certainly would not have been a vacuum assist. I think SPF is a very good company with some strong personel assets and will get it worked out! But, if they want to send me a car........