Superformance Brakes (or not)

[PANAVIA]

Thank you for the response there Tom, it helps.

I have a long road to go to get my car on the street in the first place.

Has the factory chimed in on this issue to its customers>? I would expect at least a TSB, of not a wilwood part substitution. Say like if your car has over 320HP and under 14" of mercury at idle you may want to do X,Y or Z. -- does anyone here speak with SPF corp >?

[madmaxx]

Panavia you have a two year warranty if you bought from an approved Superformance distributor. I would think Supeformance or your dealer will contact YOU when they have the remedy. You should not have to look and hunt on the web for a known issue solution. It is their (Supeformance and your dealer) responsibility to supply what they sold you which is an assembled vehicle equipped with brakes which predictabley stop the car in all environments. If you do not hear from them, assume the car is safe and drive the car as they described during the sale which is a replica of a 1965 shelby cobra which won numerous races in the 60's. I doubt the originals ran without brakes.

[wanab5150]

Steve, I would not expect the factory to be dropping off any 41's at your door. If what Barry Block (manager Superformance) told me on Wednesday is true, there may be a master cylinder change, caliper change and definately a pad change. THIS WAS FROM BARRY'S MOUTH !!!
1. He said he sent a master cylinder to Wilwood to check for compatability!
2. He's waiting for some new ...more agressive pads to help with the front/rear bias problem!
3. The 34's and the 41's were never R&D'd by ANYONE. It was a cost effictive instant fix for the e-brake they HOPED would work. do you really think that they would have changed from the original 4 pot, to the single PBR (baer), to the single 34mm, and now to the single 41mm since approx car 2725 if they had done ANY F***ING R&D work???????? Read the entire thread!
I've received e-mails from individuals stating that these are the best breake I have ever felt. I've also received more stating they are absolutly garbage.and dangerous. I guess the common denominator is what type of driver you are. If you are a 65 year old with poor vision that doesn't drive over 35, the brakes are perfect for you! If you expect the brakes to match the 500+ HP capable, bilstein coilovers, unequal a arms, 2x4 stiff frame, 9 inch rear end....race car replica....you better wake up and smell the coffee.
And Steve....go ahead and trust the brakes as MADMAXX states. When you park it in the side of someones wife or kid be prepared to be added to the prison over capacity problem. This is a known liability issue. Don't think for a minute a defense attorney wouldn't say..........didn't you read about this problem before you drove your car?

[PANAVIA]

My car is on its way here, I bought a roller from Kayalami/Dynamic in Ohio. So I have not even seen the car in person yet. (gets here this week, on a truck somewhere between OH&CA)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other...spagenameZWDVW

So when it gets here, I will pop it up in the air and check out what is going on and verify exactly which calipers and rotors are installed, I have been told they are the 'New wilwoods (meaning 34mm)

My dealer has "no news they can say" about a solution, however they reassure that there has to be a fix on the way.

The way I see it, unless something happens with the Permanent fix, there will be a captive audience of SPF cars with no brake parts support, looking for conversions. I was thinking the best people for the job would be;

1. SSBC -- www.ssbrakes.com they specialize in putting on disc brakes where there were not brakes before.

2. Griggs Racing, they use a sierra based system on GT500s (new) and have some serious caliper setups.

3. Brembo; 'there is always room for brembo' ---

Any one of these companies would have already SHIPPED the solution, vs *****footing around.

Earlier in the thread, I read that someone was "Sending someone a master cylinder" . seems a little backward.

MY question would be; Aren't these master cylinders somewhat standardized in the automotive world so that we would have a piston /plunger diameter, and outlet tube dimension, PSI generated and a ratio of a front and back proportion to be maintained. From that point you should be able to review this on some sort of CAD software (or at very least a spreadsheet with formulas) ...at say wilwood and find out the answer.

My other thought is that Wilwood should be managing upward to their customer on this one. How many SPF guys are going to talk to other performance auto guys (read: Other consumers) and "wince" at the "W-Word". in todays shaky auto-after market they cant afford the bad rap.

Secondly who the *#*(@# at the wilwood OEM desk said it was OK to ship this 34MM thing replacing the 4 piston Dynalites, there had to be something more than; "well they are in stock". Short version: The tech rep dropped the ball, as in a liability case, wilwood would be yarded into court as well.

The part I am really concerned about here is why are we having a poor guy in RENO do R&D on this, on HIS TIME!



That is not fair to Steve in Reno, I cant imagine the stress on that one. Inappropriate I tell you.

OK, so --What else has no R&D budget in the SPF >? venting a bit, sorry. but really now...

--Steve

[Maurice Butler]

brake sizing spreadsheets here http://www.donostia.demon.nl/index_files/Brakes01.htm

brake bias with single master cylinder here

http://www.autospeed.co.nz/cms/A_0645/article.html


I don't like a low performance car with bad brakes let alone a high performance car - hope you guys get this sorted because I don't want to be on the road when you are.

[Karel289]

Hi!
My site has been mentioned [Maurice Butler] as a source of spread sheet for a reasonable brake calculation.

I think that you guy's will love these new spread sheet that is based on a dual master cylinder to get a good brake balance.

It important that you understand how it works and therefor I have made some pictures of my 3D Cobra model of SolidWorks.

I hope that these pictures will help to understand what is going on during braking.

Don't forget that the tires is one of the biggest factors during stooping a car.
The pads friction is also very important, not because the biggest friction factor will help you but watch for the manufacturers data and see if the temperature rating is the correct one, also check that it holds the friction coefficient all the way [it is jut flat]

New Spread Sheet link:
http://www.cobratech.nl/FORUM/Cobra2...ationREV02.xls

Pictures:

Regards,
Karel289

[MattT]

This issue has been resolved...
Call your local dealer, it is my understanding SFP had specd a Q pad compund for the car.
I believe you want the BP-10 Wilwood compound.
If SPF is out of stock these can be ordered direct form Wilwood. But please confirm this with SPF.

[Tommy T]

I've got an old (124) SPF. OK brakes with the original 351 crate. Repowered with a K Craft sb 427 and had NO braking to speak of while stuck in heavy traffic without REALLY standing on the pedal, in spite of a vacuum reservoir. Fine on the track though, ended up putting in a vacuum pump for use on the street, but not necessary when carring some RPM.

[wanab5150]

Steve, Regarding Wilwood, like I said and you stated a different way, Wilwood is dancing around acting like they can’t find their ass with both hands. They have a solution but won't step on Superformance toes. Like I said earlier in this thread....In a conversation with Lance Stander (ceo? Superformance), he said Wilwood wouldn't produce a caliper at a price he was willing to pay. Lance sh** canned Wilwood for the PBR’s he used for about 2 months to punish Wilwood. Then all of a sudden Wilwood produces the 34mm with the e-brake and he switched back to Wilwood. (Such a deal!!!)
Do you really wonder why Wilwood hasn't got the balls to step up and tell the SPF owners why their brakes don't work??? Superformance would dump them again and just give SPF owners a pair of Converse tennis shoes to drag for brake if Wilwood breathed a word of what THEY ALREADY KNOW IS A SOLUTION.
When I talked to Steve Cornelius (sales manager) Wilwood about the problem, I could hear the sweat beading up on his forehead! All Wilwood would have had to do is grab a master cylinder, try some different internals with the 34’s and 4 pot calipers and call Superformance. If they made the damn calipers they have to know which master cylinder would work.....BUT, he didn't, AND never called me back as he said he would!!!
For Matt who said the solution is here………..Since I JUST TALKED TO Barry Block on Wednesday afternoon, I don’t think he received the new pads, installed them, tested them and is shipping them already. Whoever is telling you that they have the cure should call Lance (ceo) and Block, (Manager) of Superformance!!! I think they’d like to hear of this cure!

[PANAVIA]

So get this...SPF 2734 Arrived today, and I think it has 4 pot rear calipers. More news photos later....

--Steve

NEWS UPDATE: 6/4/2008 10PM.

OK, so the calipers on the back of the car are deceiving. From the outer wheel side they look like they possibly may have 4 pistons.

Well , then you get your head under the car, and there you have it. a 34mm single piston wilwood with an e-brake built in. ---think of a 35mm film can with a Russian paper clip sticking out the top.

Found this on the wilwood site.

http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-...-cpb/index.asp


--These are way to small to be on this car. these are smaller than any caliper I have seen, let alone one that is supposed to stop a 275/60/15 radial powered by 300+ horses. I will get some pictures uploaded tomorrow night. -- Calling Dealer for an update in the AM.

Thanks to Tom for checking in on me.

--Steve

[Richie18]

Like it was said earlier the vacuum is part of the issue.
Also like what was previously said the Superformance Cobras used the Q-spec compound which is a ceramic compound and for optimal performance needs to be heated up.(Also need to be brokenn i correctly) For better street performance they are going to use the BP-10 pads from willwood which is what they use on the GT40, it's slightly softer/aggressive pad that doesn't require to be heated up like the ceramic brakes for optimal performance/feel. Superformance is still testing a new pad for the rear brakes that will be available in a month or so once they finish testing it.

[McDoo]

Wanab5150 & Panavia...

Why don't you take this discussion off line or better yet join SCOF and seek help over there. This whole thread has done nothing but create bad press for Superformance and they really don't deserve this from you new owners. Lance does not source the parts for Hi Tech so leave him out of this please. It's very difficult to cover all bases given all of
the available engines available out there and it's pretty clear that neither one of you know much about cars or brakes for that matter.

McDoo Former owner of SPF 931 I feel much better now

[madmaxx]

Wanab5150 & Panavia...

I appreciate the effort you guys have gone through and please continue to post on CC. The SCOF is great but I frequent CC because I have access to it at work LOL. You both have done a great job!!! I also own a recent SPF and have bitten my tongue numerous times on this brake issue.

Mcdoo with a whopping 5 post and a previous owner what loyalty. So when is your new SPF arrriving?

We spent alot of money on these cars, if SPF were issueing TSB and arriving at a solution in a timely mannerthis post would not be taking place.

[McDoo]

Madmaxx wrote:

Mcdoo with a whopping 5 post and a previous owner what loyalty. So when is your new SPF arrriving?


I have owned 931 since November of 2000 and only recently sold it. I have also been a member of SCOF since
it's very beginning and have ALWAYS been a supporter
of Cobra's and Superformance. If you are a SCOF member
you might remember me as Mr Bill.......

Mr Bill

[jidge]

I own SPF #2788. Took delivery of it in April 2008 from Wayne at Gear6performance in Idaho. I love the car and love the brakes.

[madmaxx]

McDoo

Only became a member of SCOF a couple weeks ago and only looked at the technical section (very nice and informative). Can not access yahoo groups at work.

I find for a car (SPF) that is herald as a replica standard to have a brake issue which has been going on for months now to be a little bitter to swallow. The bitterness is exagerated by the fact that the rest of the car is as close to perfection as one could get. I will put mine up against anyones including other SPF's as far as fit and finish, quality of components, engine bay and engine and they may be as good but they will not be better.

I have no idea what the magic bullet is to cure the brake issue (brake shoes, different calipers, master cylinder) that is why I bought a roller. You would think that SPF would issue a letter of warning or recall or a statement. I have been contacted by noyone. I have heard nothing, the only thing I hear is on this post so I assume which I must since the OEM has not indicated different the vehicle is fine to drive.

This forum is a blog, nobody is a documeted expert, so when other members indicate their brakes do not work how do I know they know how to use them, maybe they are hitting the clutch instead of the brake. I know for one thing it the brakes are not predictable in the wrong situation the last thing SPF will be worried about is building replicas.

[Got the Bug]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Panavia you have a two year warranty if you bought from an approved Superformance distributor.

Correction: I believe the warranty in only valid for 1 year. From Superformance:

?A. The seller shall provide an express one (1) year warranty of
merchantability and fitness with respect to the chassis, fit and
finish and all other standard features except for the electronic
and wiring components"

Only 3 months for electrical:

"Electrical components including, but not limited to, wiring
harnesses, fuse boxes, ignition systems, gauges, etc., shall
carry a three (3) month warranty."



Other warranty info that might apply here:

"D. Modifications performed by Superformance Inc., and/or the
Dealer, after the date of sale and/or after the culmination of the
warranty period shall carry a separate warranty to be
determined by the parties at that time with such terms and
conditions having no effect "on any portion of this agreement."

"J. The seller reserves the right to make any changes in design or
to make any additions to or upon its products without incurring
any obligations to install the same equipment on motor
vehicles previously built."

[wanab5150]

Mc Doo….Are you Mc Dooing somebody at Superformance or what? I would not think the boss (Lance) would need you to step up to the plate for him. He’s a big boy. I think everyone at Superformance should be held accountable!
As I said before, anyone that says his or her brakes are fine (on the 34mm cars) needs a lobotomy. I would love to take you for a ride in your car so I could show you what you don’t seem to get from this forum, or, you just want to jack your jaws and haven’t even read the whole thread!
For the guy that said I just don’t know much about brakes…………well apparently neither does Wilwood. If they did, they would have provided a working system to Superformance or at least helped cure the woes that exist on the phone, independent of Superformance. I’m still waiting for them to call back but it’s only been 6 weeks!!!!!
As this all seems to be out of control. I will state again that I think the car is a piece of art and is still the best factory built Cobra for the street. I’ve not complained about one other issue with the car. The company is still working on the braking from what Barry Block said to me on the phone. My car does stop now, and I feel it is safe since the 34’s were swapped out for the 41’s. I think those making comments should read the entire thread before adding their two cents.

[Got the Bug]

Wanab5150 - What is your name? Why don't you add it to your signature? Also, for readability, please try to add a couple of spaces between paragraphs.

[vegasmike]

Well, I have been a lurker on this thread for quite some time.

Some observations:

I am not convinced that this is an SPF or a Wilwood issue. Things just don't make sense. Whay are there not more people with major problems? Why are there people with absolutely no problems?

I do not have an answer. It could be an isolated SPF problem. It could be an isolated Wilwood problem. It could be an installer issue.

The one question I have is why the installer or dealer let a customer drive off with inferior brakes. If he did not know they were not adequate, why not? Isn't it reasonable to expect this kind of deficiency to be caught by the installer or dealer?

If anything, this thread has put more focus on taking delivery with appropriate braking systems. I know I have had extensive conversations with Wayne at Gear6 over this issue. He has actually posted a memo on this issue on his site at www.gear6performance.com. It's worth a read.