Superformance Brakes (or not)

[pooreds]

I have to back up everything Tom is saying. I have SPF 2690, the first SPF that arrived in Reno with the "new brakes". I have been watching and listening from the shadows to see what SPF's next step is. I have been told to be careful and not tailgate until the problem is solved. I won't throw the person who told me this under the bus, don't ask! I have driven Tom's car and he has driven mine. Same coaster stopping ability. I do know I have a lack of vacuum for assisting. I have a 60 year old Willys jeep with manual adjust drum brakes, no vacuum assist, that makes my SPF brakes look pitiful.
When I ordered my SPF, I had a proportioning valve installed in my rear brake line because I didn't want the 4 pot rear calipers locking up and spinning the car around. I guess that was a waste a money. I didn't get what the SPF brochere advertised. If you don't believe me, come drive the car and promise you will post a new thread after your experience. ED

[PANAVIA]

--Not even going to respond to Mcdude. --those of you who know me , can vouch for my auto acumen.

Ok, so a little more research.

I have a friend with an ERA chassis in the late 500's. The brakes are front end sierras, with Jag rear, and 7/8 wilwood masters. READ: with NO vacuum assist. In a test drive this evening I hauled the ERA down from serious speeds repeatedly with NO issues.

Keep in mind my SPF just got here and it will be until January until I can drive it legally (SB100 Golden ticket award needed)

I like the build quality in the SPF, I have been favorably impressed with most things, some things are odd, but it is a "Replica, and not a Copy".

With that said, I am trying to get people to think about this issue and go from there.

Right Now: The 34mm Rear calipers I have are the same size as a econobox. they are NOT the calipers of the Superformance cars of the past. This is more of a business problem and less of a technical one in my opinion.

What We Know: SPF had some changes at the factory, in the supply chain and they went from a 4 piston wilwood dynalite, to a PBR, then to a 34mm wilwood in a matter of 50 cars or less (AFAIK)

so now, they SPF, are looking to go to a 41mm+ caliper.

as with the ERA, you can successfully fit a car with different front and rear brakes mfr's and come up with a balanced system. For instance, how many have driven a car with Front Discs and rear drums -- Same idea.

So here is what I am thinking. The wilwoods on the front look like they are of stern stuff and are up to a good task, if not better.

The rears should be larger, period, they dont need to be pretty.

I have been looking at designs and calipers for the rears. Ford Racing and SSBrakes have excellent viable solutions, that if the bracket(s) works, could be the fit.

Keep in mind, it is Nice if you can get braking manufacturer unity in the front and back braking systems in a car, but it is not mandatory.

The automotive industry is based on standards, standard pad shapes and sizes. Standard flange sizes. standard disc width. Braking internal industry standards, but still standards.

I am hoping that the 34mm willwood caliper also is the same mounting flange size as something else in the brake-ing world. The way they (ww) were advertising it on their site, it sounded like something that would bolt up to other applications.

Thoughts on a rear replacement;

1. Wilwood 44mm+ version of what they got under there.
2. Ford Racing Cobra Calipers (M-2320-CR) (may be too big)
3. SSBbrakes Force 10
4. Brembo TBD.

If you look at the PDF from WW, the 34 mm calipers mount in an odd fashion with the caliper bolts 90 degrees off from where I would expect them. the bolts are not parallel to the axle driven plane, but 90 degrees, perpendicular if you will, to it.

Also the possible flow rates needed of the master, and the fitted steel tubing may also be a hurdle as listed.

I will pull my wheel and photo the area and measure clearances to see how much real-estate we are dealing with. Most SPFs are 15" wheels, so i am sure that is hampering a solution.

The cobra mustang (a much heavier car than what we are dealing with, used the M-2300 caliper paired with a much larger Brembo front and was able to keep pace.

I think there is room for growth and I am surprised that SPF has not offered a "performance braking" option in their products, seem like an opportunity.

Am I suffering buyers remorse --NO!-- I cant wait to drive this thing.

--Steve

[madmaxx]

Somewhere along the 142 post to this thread I thought I read that prior to the rear caliper change everthing was fine. If this is the case why does SPF just not revert to the old style caliper and brake shoes (2500 series car and prior) and be over with it?

I remember when I changed the rear pads on my brothers 1997 Trans Am they were also very little and it was a 3500 lb car. Size of the pad might not matter as much as force applied per square inch.

[vegasmike]

You guys have fun with this "brake" issue.

The one thing you have done is put a focus on this. I will be getting my car (2813) in a few weeks and will post my observations.

The one thing I can say is that I trust my vendor/installer to make sure everything works and is perfect on the car, not just the brakes. I am confident that Wayne at Gear6 will make that happen.

I know when things don't work. He will know how to make them work.

If you really want to isolate what "might" really be the problem, you need to go about this in a different way. List the facts, car #, brake style, pads, miles on car. installer, engine, etc. NO speculations or opinions. It is the only way a "real" engineer would approach this supposed problem.

[madmaxx]

Vegas,

I bet you are getting alot of sleep about now, waiting is the hardest part LOL!!

"Real" Engineers do not make any money!!! This is a great forum where I read and respond, complain and learn alot. I personnaly would never make any changes to a safety critical system such as brakes (how do you like those engineering terms) without the manufactures approval. SPF knows of the problem, I am sure they are working on it, their response time could be better IMHO and in the end it will all settle out. If it helps for people to vent here so be it and if it helps SPF find a solution even better but for me they are the final say.

I do beleive some of the SPF with the current 34MM set up are stopping in an acceptable manner or their owners would be chiming in or they have not pushed the cars yet as far as performance.

I know vacuum plays a role. On my last cobra it did not have an automatic choke and when I stopped in the morning the engine would try to die I would loose brakes. Installed a choke and problem vanished.

That sums up my experience with brakes, I have no doubt I could become an expert if I wanted but I would rather get plowed on my boat on Saturdays, or waxing my car, or driving my car, or looking for my toy then doing brake design.

[madmaxx]

The one thing I can say is that I trust my vendor/installer to make sure everything works and is perfect on the car, not just the brakes. I am confident that Wayne at Gear6 will make that happen.

Your installer is LUCKY. The only way he will be able to guarantee everthing is perfect may come at a longevity cost of the engine and tranny. In other words for him to ensure everything is perfect he will need to rack up about 200 miles with some pretty darn hard driving including extremely hard braking and very high speed in excess of 100 mph. If he does not do that then I do not see how he can guarantee the performance of the brakes.

[vegasmike]

Well, he will be taking them through several cycles to get them broken in properly. As far as a guarantee. I expect them to work appropriately on delivery based on what he has set forth in his memo on his site. If anything goes wrong, I also trust that he will do his best to make it right. There is a very good reason that some of Gear6's (Wayne's) customers are from great distances away. He knows what he is doing, has the reputation to back it up and appears to be more detailed than I am. I could easily have gotten mine in Las Vegas, but I did not. I chose to go to Boise, of all places, becasue I trust Wayne to do it right.I would not classify Wayne as "LUCKY", more like experienced, wise, practical, attentive, somewhat anal (good thing) and, above all, honest.

Like I said, until someone approaches this issue in the right manner, I will not consider this an SPF, Willwood or Installer issue, but it is most certainly one of them. I think it the most prudent thing to say that it will definitely be an area of focus.

And yes, real engineer's can make serious money. I went to GA Tech a couple decades ago and quite a few of those guys are living very nice lives now.

As far as this wait thing, I am follicly challenged enough right now. The ship is due into LA today at 6pm. No, I am not anxious, my wife calls me obsessive. I call it focused.

[PANAVIA]

At a shop that I am part owner of, we upgrade braking systems all the time, we put wilwoods or SSBC or reproduction calipers on early Mustangs, Camaros and Stingrays.

We also Fix botched home installs of conversion kits, and take off bad conversion kits and go back to stock for many cars. This is one reason why I am so verbal about this.

-- I think we have a time delay here. From SPF in PE, how long does it take to get a car on the street>?

We are the leading edge of probably even discussing this. How many cars have shipped and are in a shop awaiting finishing before the owner gets to drive them, and for how long>?

--OK, back to business. I will post photos tonight and list them. --off to work.

Update :6/6/2008 at 7PM.

Well I got the calipers off the hub, examined them and put them back.

The calipers are marked with PN# GU-9808 on the drivers side. They have some odd design characteristics. Wilwood design made them look like their 4 pot caliper from the outside by having the side that faces the wheel look like the side of a Dynalite 4, the wilwood logo is on a 4.5" long piece of metal housing a 3" long brake pad that effective pad size is 2.5"/1.25".

The mounting holes on the caliper itself , mount to a 4mm thick steel sub plate, that bolts to the aluminum hub carrier. For pretty much any other caliper to go on here that sub plate would need to be swapped, this is a common thing with disc brake swap kits, so there are ways to do this effectively.

The Rotor is .810 thick, vented and is over 11" and looks to be made of quality material and well finished.

The hub has 4 bolt holes on it, so theoretically, you could have a Disc Brake caliper and a parking brake caliper. It would be nice to have them in the same unit, but that may be an issue.

The pads they are fitted with are the ww D340 pad.

http://brakepads.wilwood.com/06-illu...ages/d340.html

--this is listed as the 1998 to 2004 beetle pad amongst others....

I am going to stop here for a while and discuss with some folks offline and come back with some actual ideas.

--Steve

[madmaxx]

GA Tech,

Is that a junior college? LOL!!! I went to Texas A&M and have heard more aggie jokes then I could care to hear. Traditional engineers make a comfortable and secure living with good health care benefits. Yea, if they manage their money wise and avoid divorces they can play with Cobra's but they will not be driving a $350K 52' Baja Outlaw across the bay on Saturday.

My buddy friend who is 38 years old and got a check for 7 million one time is rich with over 3 MM in cars in his 7 bay garage including two ferraris and a ford GT with 60 miles on it. I bet you can guess what he does for a living, I will say this BP know what he does.

[PANAVIA]

I am also wondering why they dont go back to the OLD calipers.

[wanab5150]

Steve, The main reason Superformance deleted the 4 pot caliper is that the only companys making an economical rear caliper with an e-brake was PBR and then Wilwood a few months later. With the 4 pots (no integrated e-brake) they had to add the driveshaft mounted e-brake seperately which was a cost they could delete with the integrated e-brake. CHEAPER IS THE ANSWER!

I will also say that only one person I have talked to stated that the old e-brake worked at all, and his car had 800 miles on it at the time. His car was 2 years old! Everyone else including Lance and Barry said that poor function was the main reason for the change.

As for "Vegasmike" If you know anything about the product you purchased, the entire braking system comes intact on the car. INSTALLERS DON'T ADD THE BRAKES OR ANY PART TO THE SYSTEM! If your installer is different than any I have heard of and he tampers with the brakes on his own without the consent of Superformance you and your warrantee will be hung out to dry. It's great you have a business that will put his own money into the car to insure it is perfect.

If you read the thread you'd have known

[McDoo]

wanab5150....
Why won't you just crawl back into the hole that you came out of and just shut the F.... up !!! SPF will fix your problem but this constant bashing on a public forum is just not right.

McDoo

[PANAVIA]

Originally Posted by McDoo

SPF will fix your problem but this constant bashing on a public forum is just not right.

McDoo

McD---

We are not bashing. We are concerned, there is a difference. --Observation and question asking, and thought provoking, not bashing.

All commentary is made with the hopes that an answer is found, not to unduly damage *any* entity. I am sure someone is working on it officially supported by the WW and SPF teams.

I just wish they would make themselves known to us and ack that we are affected, ---everyone is so suit happy these days, no wonder why they are not wanting to talk to anyone.

McD, I appreciate that your SPF cars work well and that you are a SPF fan, I am an SPF fan too or I wouldn't have plunked down my $$$$

But know this: Before I put my wife in the passenger seat and go cruising to carmel ca, I am going to make sure the car stops first, and right now, this is in doubt in my mind.

The rear pads on the current SPFs cross over to uses on recent VW products . I dont recall any VWs that run 275/50/15 rubber with 400 horsepower.

Asking questions, not bashing, wanting to know what the next step is.

Best Regards,

---Steve

[wanab5150]

I concur Steve! Don't worry about Mc Doo, He's from Carmel. Retired Officer Patterson worked the streets of Carmel for about 4 years but said he couldn't stand the know-it-all's (can't use the words he used on the forum). He came back to Salinas PD. Salinas is a crime ridden den of bangers, illegals and has 17 murders to date, but he preferred it to "Carmelians". Besides, McDoo probably had his license suspended and HAD to sell his car. He just hangs around the forum to creat grief and contraversy as he has nothing better to do.
McDoo, YOU crawl back into your hole until you have something constructive to say based on CURRENT knowledge of what's happening this century with Superformance.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

Salinas is a crime ridden den of bangers, illegals and has 17 murders to date...

17 murders? That's nothing. Here in the beautiful Nation's Capital we had seven just this week. But of course, you're not allowed to own a gun here either -- that's supposed to keep you safer.

[vegasmike]

Wanab - You must not have checked the website address I gave earlier detailing what Wayne at Gear6 does with his brakes. Please do not assume what I might know or not know or what I may have read or not read. That would be showing some real ignorance. To assume that Barry and Wayne have not discussed this issue also appears somewhat naive. Again, please check the link.

I have read every part of this thread at least twice. You obviously missed the point. It just might not be a brake issue at all.

Now, I don't have time for comments made by McDoo in the manner he did, but I am beginning to think he has a point. I can certainly understand why he might be feeling like he is banging his head against a wall.

When I receive my car in a few weeks, I trust that it will work fine in all respects. Given that the only difference between them and yours (at delivery) are the pads, engine type and installer, I think we might be able to make some conclusions.

Let's just say that I have talked with a far, far greater number of people who have had no real issues with their cars, brakes in particular, than I have had with people that complained about their brakes. The only one's I have come across originate on this thread. What does that really say?

When I receive my car, I will let you know if I have a brake issue (I seriously doubt I will). I will also let you know if I don't. In that respect, if no issue, then I deem this an isolated issue and certainly not an SPF or Wilwood issue.

In my opinion, all this thread has done is place some focus on the brakes. If mine work fine, I will ignore this thread until such time as I have reason to do differently.

[McDoo]

Tom here is my point, you wrote early on in this topic as follows:

I may not have painted an accurate picture of the issue.....This is an issue of FAILURE TO STOP...PERIOD. If I bleed the fluid and added urine and removed the pads and replaced them with bricks the car might stop better. I'm retired law enforcement and have tested many cars after fatals or serious injury accidents. This car would fail. If I hit someone and the CHP tested this car, I would go straight to prison! Maybe a little dramatic, but they're really bad. Thanks for the suggestions so far, I called Lance today but he's out of the office. Also "Coop"...wana trade for the cooper S? and...the 70 to 0 is pulling out of the driveway cold!...LOL......tom

Now what I am telling you is there is an owners forum to
which you were invited to join when you bought the car where you can vent your frustrations as it is a private forum. On that forum you will find a vast array of experts that have direct contact with the factory as well as all the dealers and installers. That is the place where this sort of disscussion should be taking place. CC is a public forum and like it or not there are many folks here that would like nothing more than to see this topic become a big problem and ultimately diminish the value of your new car that you just received !!! I don't think that you realize that in the course of this topic you have bashed the very people that are trying to help you and quiet frankly if I were them I would just let you sink in your own stink. Now if you have an issue with what I am trying to tell you as a very long time owner of a Superformance Cobra you can contact me directly since I have provided my email address in the profile section which none of you guys had the balls to do.


McDoo

[wanab5150]

Mc Doo, had it not been for this site, I believe nothing would have been done. I wrote to Lance@superformance.com directly right after the problem arose. My car was fixed 8 weeks later.
Did you read Dennis Olthoff's response after being notified of the problem. He had been working on the brakes for 2 months before I even got my car! Olthoff has probly done more testing and R&D than any one else, and if you read his test on the 4 calipers you should get it. His test concluded that the 34mm caliper produced right at 70% LESS braking force than the 4 pots you had on your earlier SPF. 70% LESS, GET IT?

Vegasmike, I don't know anything about your installer other than he makes a living off the sale of these cars. He has done ONE car with the "NEW" brakes. Which new.....the 34's 41's or the PBR's ....they were ALL new within the last few months! He makes no reference to which he claims work "for spirited street use". If he's refering to the 41's which have replaced the 34's on my car, then "spirited street use" might qualify. If that ONE car had PBR's like POORED's car, even better. But the 34's....NOT! If Gear6 promisses to set your car up right, then he probably already has a set of the 41's comming. I have a contact in Ventura who also had his upgraded to the 41's before leaving the shop.

Above, "POORED" has the PBR's and he's not completely happy. His have better stopping power than the 41's that I have now after replacement of the 34's according to Dennis Olthoff.

Answer this question, anyone......If I'm off my a** on this topic, explain why all the caliper changes in the last several months. Four to be exact! From what I understand, the new standard is going to be the 41mm at this point, and possible master cylinder updates as well. I've admitted that my brakes are safe and streetable since the change. It's all you know-it-alls that keep chiming in that motivate this forum. AND....neither of you, Vegasmike or McDoo, have even driven a new car. You're basing your experience on what, palm readers? hairs standing up on the back of your neck?numbness in you toes? Comment further when you have a running car on the street that YOU can eveluate. I'm assuming Vegasmike, that your car will come with the 41's. If it does, you'll be happy and not have had to go through any of the grief I and others have. You can thank us later!

[madmaxx]

Answer this question, anyone......If I'm off my a** on this topic - No you are not and I admire your political correctness and professionalism in your responses when attacked.

It's all you know-it-alls that keep chiming in that motivate this forum. - You know most people know everything about nothing.

[PANAVIA]

Originally Posted by jidge

I own SPF #2788. Took delivery of it in April 2008 from Wayne at Gear6performance in Idaho. I love the car and love the brakes.

OK, so whats underneath>? 41's >?