Superformance Brakes (or not)

[PANAVIA]

Date Note: it is 6/8/2008, and no official word from SPF.

SSBRAKES has their force 10 setup;

http://www.ssbrakes.com/products/detail/3525

54mm.

[wanab5150]

Steve, I don't know if there will be an official word, but I would hope they deliver all cars from this point out with at least the 41's. I think you will be happy with them. I feel a lot more comfortable since the swap and I am hoping the research on the master cylinder will turn up something that may make them even better.

I really don't think the 41mm size SHOULD be an issue. My Z06 had about 40mm singles in the back and it would stop so fast that the paint would keep going! It weighed 3200 lbs. I still have a feeling great performance is around the corner, but as of this date I haven't found anyone who really knows much about master cylinders relative to Wilwood caliper performance. Some have speculated earlier in the thread, but only Wilwood knows.

Wilwood knows exactly which master cylinder would work best with their calipers, but they are clammed up for some reason or they would have spoken up by now! (Liability maybe) They’ve sold calipers to 2800 cars or better. That’s 11,200 calipers sold to Superformance alone!

I've talked to Baer, and they said any brake company would have tested everything before they released it and said there's no way any brake manufacturer wouldn't know what master cylinder would match their own calipers. It just doesn’t make sense.

I've said it several times now......The brakes are safe and perform well under street conditions. Maybe even track, I don’t know yet. Superformance stepped up to the plate. The only phone call I have not received back is the one from Wilwood promising me an answer to the master cylinder issue. This was about mid to late March when they called me saying they would get back to me with an answer.

I know some will say …Now this guy is targeting Wilwood! Not true……. It's just the last part of the puzzle. If you read the thread, you will see throughout, Wilwood has been part of the quotient from the beginning. If they would have answered questions about the 34’mm calipers when this all started, I would not have gone through half the grief I have since March.

Your either part of the problem or part of the solution……………… I think that if I use their product, I deserve an answer to the last question.

[PANAVIA]

Agreed Tom,

In theory 41mm with the correct composition of pad should work for a 2500 lb car.

I have nothing but time till January as I am still building the engine and sorting out other projects.

I will contact my dealer in the AM and see if they have an update. I will call you as well.

--Steve

[Richie18]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

Date Note: it is 6/8/2008, and no official word from SPF.

SSBRAKES has their force 10 setup;

http://www.ssbrakes.com/products/detail/3525

54mm.

This is what they told me.

Originally Posted by Richie18

Like it was said earlier the vacuum is part of the issue.
Also like what was previously said the Superformance Cobras used the Q-spec compound which is a ceramic compound and for optimal performance needs to be heated up.(Also need to be brokenn i correctly) For better street performance they are going to use the BP-10 pads from willwood which is what they use on the GT40, it's slightly softer/aggressive pad that doesn't require to be heated up like the ceramic brakes for optimal performance/feel. Superformance is still testing a new pad for the rear brakes that will be available in a month or so once they finish testing it.

[PANAVIA]

Just got off the phone with Lance at SPF. they are directing wilwood to send me the PI 41mm caliper with the street compound brake material.

What I am hearing is that there were multiple things in play, and in the legal scape that is 2008, there was no real way for SPF or WW to say anything to anyone.

At SPFs direction, WW is substituting the 41mm with the softer compound. From what i was told, this has been tested on a car and they (WW) are confident in the solution.

They also counciled that the brakes should be thoughtfully reviewed, cleaned (pads and rotors ) with brakeekleen cleaner and bedded prior to operation. as opposed to just putting your motor in and driving away.

Also the low vac situation on the "R" brand motors sound like a tuning issue.

I wonder if there is a repro smiths vacuum guage>?

Well, WW will send me a box with 41's and I will take pictures and test and advise.

--theoretically, this should cure the deal.

now onto getting the motor built. Ford Racing BOSS Block goes under the knife tomorrow.

--Steve

[wanab5150]

Good for you....I think you'll be happy.

I wish I could find someone with the tuning tips. I read this on Gear6's site where he said it was stupid to run a vacuum pump. He's the only person that I am aware of that said HE could tune up MORE VACUUM.

Other than uping the idle, what tuning can you do to the Roush. If I put a 500 cfm Holly on it the vacuum would go up due to the higher volicity through a smaller hole. I think this is called Burnuli's principal.....Something like that anyway. With the 750 or 770 have you heard anyone state how they achieve more vacuum from a tune? ANYONE?
Vegasmike? You've talked to him, how does he do it? tom

[wanab5150]

On bedding brakes.........You'll get a different answer from everyone. GOOGLE..bedding brakes. A ton of sites will pop up. tom

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

They also counciled that the brakes should be thoughtfully reviewed, cleaned (pads and rotors ) with brakeekleen cleaner and bedded prior to just putting your motor in and driving away.

How the hell do you bed in brakes without a motor? Have your buddies push real hard?

Steve

[vegasmike]

Call Wayne and ask him yourself. You have got a phone and a voice, don't you, just kidding, sort of? It would make more sense for you to learn what he suggests first hand. Just don't take too much of his time. He has in install to complete and deliver.

Wayne did say it wasn't hard and told the guy down in LA he would show him. Wayne knows his stuff, been around a lot of race cars and rebuilds.

I did my homework when I was selecting a dealer/installer and Wayne was the cream of the crop, no bad references at all, no luke-warm references. Every single person was extremely happy with their car and ecstatic of the level of customer service/care they received from him. I have even had other dealers tell me that Wayne was a great choice. I have a dealer here in Las Vegas, live close to the Shelby shop and still opted for Wayne just because of his reputation. He is a no-nonsense kind of guy, just ask Dennis next time you talk with him.

I still wonder why your dealer and/or installer let you drive away with a car that had no brakes?

[vegasmike]

Oh yea, if Wayne isn't in, he is probably going to pick up my car. I know he has been getting several calls about this issue as well, including from Barry in LA, hence the open letter on his site.

You can also post a comment to his letter should you really care to do so.

Yea, I did talk to him, but I do not pretend to know all of the answers and I know enough to know that the true problem may not manifest itself, rather just the symptoms. I think you might learn more asking him first hand rather than relying on third party info. I just pointed you in the direction of his letter.

He may feel that he can not give you appropriate advice without actually seeing your setup, I don't know. The only way to know is to ask him yourself.

[STL Mark]

I have car # 2693 - so - it's not the 4-pot WW rears, but it's not the new style either (the ones that are actually the focus of this thread). It has the PBR?? rear single pot with e-brake.

Anyway, the brakes work - but do not inspire the sort of confidence one would expect. I had the car in the shop today tightening a few things up, and with all of the brake issues swirling around - I asked the tech to test the vacuum. It was 7-8 and he said that was "on the edge" of being too low. He suggested the electric vacuum booster from Jegs. Should get vacuum levels to 12-13 with an automatic switch. Any opinions?

[wanab5150]

Well, it sounds like a good choice. I kinda like the belt driven pump because their's no noise, vibration, and it runs all the time with no switch to worry about. I know several that have had a night mare with the switches. On the other hand, with the electric, there's no ugly pump exposed and no belt to worry about spitting off.

With the added vacuum your brakes (pbr's) are the ones that are about 30% STRONGER than the upgraded 41's. You should be happy tom

PS From all the research, the edge averages about 10-12 depending who you talk to. Anything over that should help substantally.

[STL Mark]

Tom - THANKS!

I appreciate your support. I really hope that things start to work out for you - it sounds like they are headed that way. The reaction time leaves a bit to be desired.

Anyway, it's the electric pump for me. I have no extra room for the belt driven option - BBF 460. I'll post the results after the install.

But from what I've read on this very informative thread (and the conversation we had) - the vac boost to 12 - 13 inches will improve peddle feel and sustain that feel during the low RPMs encountered during the act of stopping the car - giving the car a completely predictable brake - as opposed to the peddle kind of feathering with the idle of the car (the way it is now).

Additionally, at some point I'll be in a position to scrap the whole system, and install some real "supercar" type brakes, calipers, rotors, lines, and master cylinder. If someone here could put together a turnkey system from top to bottom for these later generation SPF cars like mine and yours - I'll bet the could sell a couple 100 sets, and maybe even market them as upgrades to the dealers too!

Buddy - Thanks for your help. All the Best.

Mark

[Maurice Butler]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

Good for you....I think you'll be happy.

I wish I could find someone with the tuning tips. I read this on Gear6's site where he said it was stupid to run a vacuum pump. He's the only person that I am aware of that said HE could tune up MORE VACUUM.

Other than uping the idle, what tuning can you do to the Roush. If I put a 500 cfm Holly on it the vacuum would go up due to the higher volicity through a smaller hole. I think this is called Burnuli's principal.....Something like that anyway. With the 750 or 770 have you heard anyone state how they achieve more vacuum from a tune? ANYONE?
Vegasmike? You've talked to him, how does he do it? tom

by changing the timing - with a british car - the mgb 1800cc 4pot - the timing was set by adjusting for max vacuum at 800rpm then retard until the vacuum dropped 1/4" from memory - last did it 20+ years ago

found this when I when searching - google is your friend

http://www.centuryperformance.com/tu...e-spg-148.html

has good information using vacuum gauge for tuning

[wanab5150]

I think I remember the same back in the 60's where the vacuum gauge was used on older engines for diagnosis purposes. My dad used to use one before newer tech. In the case of a new engine I don't see how it would help tuning.

While advancing the timing will cause the idle (and vacuum) to rise, and retarding the timing will cause the engine to idle down and the vacuum to decrease, the timing set by Roush is their idea of optimum. I would think with the R&D Roush has put into these engines, and the thousands of them that are on the streets, the timing should not be messed with. The 427R engine puts out around 550HP. Bumping the timing up 5 degrees might give it a few more HP, but I'll bet it will rattle like a jar full of marbles as a result. Possibly if you want to run octane booster you may kill the pinging, but that's not what the engine was designed for. It's and everyday 550HP engine with a 24,000 mile warranty. I think if Roush had an idea you were tuning a warranted engine out of spec, you could use the warranty paperwork in the bathroom. So, I'm still curious how he does it.

[PANAVIA]

It would be interesting to review the spark curves and camshaft specs in the 427R, but the camshaft specs are proprietary.

[wanab5150]

June 19 '08

Well, still no word on the pads or master cylinder. I hear from a few new owners, some of the 41's are comming with the more agressive pads. But, the ones that are supposed to have shipped to me haven't arrived yet.

I will update as I obtain further.

[PANAVIA]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

June 19 '08

Well, still no word on the pads or master cylinder. I hear from a few new owners, some of the 41's are comming with the more agressive pads. But, the ones that are supposed to have shipped to me haven't arrived yet.

I will update as I obtain further.

The SPF corporate dudes and WW guys were supposed to ship me the Pads (all 4 corners) and new 41mm rears. (06-18-2008 no box yet)

-- As I recall, I told them no big rush as I am still working on the car (building motor). However, i do not recall any word on sub'ing out the Master cyl. it looks beefy enough IMHO.

I will contact them Friday and obtain an update for the team.

We could be in a 'Backorder' situation with the replacement parts.



--Steve

[wanab5150]

Steve, I received an email from Barry stating he has sent me a set of new FRONT pads. Did I miss something earlier in the thread that I can't find? I never complained about the fronts, it was always about the rears and I was told a new rear pad was in the works. Are you getting different 41mm pads? And, are you getting fronts and rears?

I e-mailed Barry but probably won't hear from him for a couple of days. tom

[madmaxx]

I am guessing you are getting the 41mm rear calipers and rear pads and new front pads. I checked my tracking number and the package weighs 15lbs. Pads would only weigh 3-5 lbs I would guess. It appears they will show up on Friday, YEA!!!!!!!!