Superformance Brakes (or not) - Page 11

wanab5150 · #**201** (**permalink**) 07-09-2008, 10:32 PM

New pads in today. I'll drive tomorrow or Friday and be back with the conclusion. tom

wanab5150 · #**202** (**permalink**) 07-09-2008, 11:10 PM

For all you guys with Superformance removing your spinners/ wheels........

The first several times I removed my spinners I dinged them. I used a large plastic mallet as I was told not to use a Lead or rubber hammer because of more damage.

All was fine except when you hit the spinner on the edge, you will get some damage OR, if your spinners are on really tight you will have to beat the crap out of the spinners and WILL damage them. ALSO, if the hammer slips off the spinner, expecially in the deep 17 inch wheels, you will possibly ding the polished part of the wheel. The spinners buff out really easy because they are very soft aluminum. I sanded the dings out with #400 then #1500 and they polished out super easy and look new. The wheel I dinged to 3 hours to remove the ding and polish it out.

Solution...... I called "Vintage Wheel" who was found to be the supplier for Superformance. I asked about the various hammers and the answer blew me away. He said go to Home Depot....buy a 2 ft. long 1"x4" piece of oak. place the end of the oak against the spinner (flat) and the middle of the piece of oak against the tire as a brace, and hit it with a STEEL hammer. Due to the fact the oak is 24" long, it sticks out from the body and away from the wheels so you can't accidently hit the wheel or body if you slip. I thought the guy was nuts.

Today I removed my wheels with one of them being extreemly tight. NO PROBLEM AND NO DAMAGE AT ALL. The oak is apparently hard enough to impact the spinner and force it, and it is also soft enough to not damage the soft aluminum.

After taking them off and putting them on, I split the oak. Buy 2 or 3.
Hard to believe, but true!!! tom

richardferguson · #**203** (**permalink**) 07-10-2008, 12:50 AM

Lead hammers won't damage wheels or spinners in my experience. I'd rather carry a hammer than a lump of wood

Richard

PANAVIA · #**204** (**permalink**) 07-10-2008, 02:53 AM

finish line sells lead hammers. it is where i got mine. --still working on my boss block for my SPF or I could comment on the braking caliper update. (my calipers are here and i have not had a chance to install)

getting my stingray ready to go to bonhams at quail in august is taking all my spare time.

wanab5150 · #**205** (**permalink**) 07-12-2008, 11:13 PM

Well, this may be a closing post on the Superformance brake issue.

For those that haven’t read the entire post (but some of it) …….. I have put 1600 miles on the car since Superformance swapped out the rear 34mm caliper for a 41mm, as the 34mm was outright trash and the car was actually dangerous. After numerous contacts with Superformance, and the development of this post, Superformance started replacing the sub-standard caliper with the 41mm Wilwood.

After the conversion to the 41mm, and the addition of a vacuum pump producing 20+ inches of vacuum, the car stopped worlds better, and safely, but it’s still not stellar. It seems good for the street but requires quite a bit of pedal pressure to stop from 100 to 0. It stays straight and requires a real boot to lock up the front wheels at any speed. Only the fronts lock up, but because of the extra effort required, panic stops are without surprises. Never once has the rear end shown any signs of locking, chirping or any sliding around. It still seems a bit deficient, but the car seems to hunker down at least and I know they’re at least providing some stopping power compared to the original 34’s.

During this last 1600 miles I have been waiting for a new pad that was to be the salvation to the still puny rear caliper. Barry Bloch called me and said these pads better matched the new 41mm rears that were previously installed. When the smoke cleared, I found that the rear caliper already had the most aggressive pad that Wilwood had to offer, the BP-10 compound. The fronts have the “Q” compound, the next less aggressive compound. Barry Bloch, the Superformance GM sent me some BP-10 pads for the front which were described as the fix for any further issues regarding braking.

When I read the E-mail, I called around and asked WHY we were putting a more aggressive pad on the front when the rears are still deficient. It seemed like we were going backwards again. I called Willwood direct and talked to the tech department. I was told by Wilwood tech support that there is no way the use of a 41mm single piston on the rear would ever really match the performance of the 4 piston Dynalight fronts….ever! So unless I wanted to do a complete swap out for a complete new system I would have to live with it or have Superformance make some other change. Well further caliper changes are probably out of the question.

The reason for dropping the 4 piston Dynalight on the rear was to find a caliper that incorporated and emergency brake, so the e-brake that was used for 2600 cars or so could now be eliminated as it was its own separate unit, completely separate from the brake system…..plus, it wouldn’t hold back a 10# bag of SH*t, much less the 2500# car. So….It was basically a trade off….E-brake for some rear brake power.

I placed the new BP-10 pads on the front with some apprehension as it just didn’t make any sense to add more braking force to the front with the back still anemic. Hoping everyone else was wrong and considering the ease of changing the pads, I did it anyway. I followed the bedding procedure to the letter. When all done….I was right! The thing turned into an unmanageable beast that locked up the front end with only moderate pedal, and acted as if there were no brakes at all in the rear. Apparently, with the addition of the extra bite in the front, the rears barley engage the rotor because only light to moderate pedal is required to completely send the front to another planet. Complete loss of control and the car still not stopping because the rear cannot engage.

I called Wilwood again and talked to a different tech asking if this was to be expected. I was advised almost the same as the first tech I talked to. “You can only expect so much progression with 4 piston calipers on the front and single piston on the rear." The fact that other cars may have a similar set-up has no bearing as the master cylinder comes into the equation, as do pressures at the calipers, and the pads of course, and other factors that are unknown.

One thing Wilwood did advise is the heat curve on the two different pads was completely different. The graph is on their web site. The Q’s are greatly affected by different temps, whereas the BP-10’s are almost linear and heat does not change the degree the pad grip very much. Basically, the “Q” pads have less braking force than the BP-10’s at lower temps but as the heat builds on harder stops, the pads increase their grip.

THE BOTTOM LINE:

I put the “Q” pads back on and went back out to test while the previous test was still fresh in my mind. I feel that the “Q” pad in the front (less aggressive) and the BP-10 in the rear (more aggressive) is a better/ safer combination on both the street or the track. I don’t have to track the car to know what would happen at 120 MPH on a race track with a wall in front of you and the front end all over the place!

For the street and maybe even track day the “Q’s” will probably be OK even if they are not perfect. I did do two 100 to 20mph stops one after another and the car stopped straight and reasonably quick. It takes quite a bit of pedal, but it’s very predictable.All in all I can live with the beast and feel comfortable and safe as I have for 1600 miles. I think I’m done and probably will never drive the car beyond its capability. Meaning…the car is more capable than I am.

Anyone with similar experiences please add to the post. I’m done with the changes, but would still like to hear about your Superformance (34mm / 41mm) experiences.Thanks to Lance and Barry at Superformance for listening and making changes. Thanks to Steve at Reno Engine and Drive train for his support and doing the swap and vacuum pump as well as the engine install and set-up. Tom

Bxx1 · #**206** (**permalink**) 07-14-2008, 12:42 AM

Congratulations for resolving your braking problems, it was a hell of an effort... and nice meeting you at Peete's coffee at Eurosunday...now that your car stops adequately I suppose you will be joining us for some rides in the future!

Ron

wanab5150 · #**207** (**permalink**) 07-28-2008, 09:07 PM

When I switched out the above pads I didn't think I would be switching back. I just assumed I would like the BP-10's. You know what happens when you assume!!!

Now that I have switched back, the brakes are as they were before...."pretty good", but it seems that the fronts may be sticking on easy stops....like when you roll up to a stop sign slowly, they will slightly stick and stay that way until I push hard on the pedal, then they will completely free up...

Since I didn't think I was going to use the pads again I didn't mark them and just put them back in with no idea which caliper the came out of. They only had 1500 miles on them.

Is it possible they will self center and wear in in a few hundred miles, or is should I should replace them even with only the 1500 miles on them? The car stops exactly as it did before I changed them. ****!

wanab5150 · #**208** (**permalink**) 12-14-2008, 11:53 PM

I should have entered this in July. Anyway the brakes work well now and stopped sticking after about 300 miles. Additionally, I ran the crap out of the car on a 5 mile downhill (Hecker Pass in Gilroy) and there was no fade AT ALL, and it worked as though it was a race car........ the way it should. End of thread. tom

wanab5150 · #**209** (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 11:53 AM

I thought I would update this thread one last time just to piss off anyone who got sick and tired of it the first go around. It has been a year or so and some might find it comforting that the car is still stopping well.

I stand by the last couple of threads that the “Q” pads are best on the front with the 4 pots calipers and the BP-10’s are best on the rear single pot. I put the BP-10’s on the front once again a few months ago to re-test them and make sure I was not imagining they were too aggressive, but THEY ARE! The fronts light up and the backs don’t even feel like they’re on yet.

I have about 6K miles on the car and have run the sh#@ out of it several times testing the system and am happy to report it still works respectfully. Not awesome, but very well. The rest of the car is holding up beyond my expectations……congrats to Superformance!

Everyone can relax; there will not be a 2 year follow-up….I’m really done! But I said that before didn't I…

jhwalker · #**210** (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanab5150 07-12-2008 10:13 PM

Well, this may be a closing post on the Superformance brake issue.

At least you said "may"

Quote:

Originally Posted by wanab5150

I thought I would update this thread one last time just to piss off anyone who got sick and tired of it the first go around. It has been a year or so and some might find it comforting that the car is still stopping well.

I stand by the last couple of threads that the “Q” pads are best on the front with the 4 pots calipers and the BP-10’s are best on the rear single pot. I put the BP-10’s on the front once again a few months ago to re-test them and make sure I was not imagining they were too aggressive, but THEY ARE! The fronts light up and the backs don’t even feel like they’re on yet.

I have about 6K miles on the car and have run the sh#@ out of it several times testing the system and am happy to report it still works respectfully. Not awesome, but very well. The rest of the car is holding up beyond my expectations……congrats to Superformance!

Everyone can relax; there will not be a 2 year follow-up….I’m really done! But I said that before didn't I…

Updates are appreciated. Glad to see that your car is working for you.

mhacars · #**211** (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 07:29 PM

This thread has been very educational for me. When I was having my car assembled several years ago I was leary about the brakes that came from the factory. My concern was being able to stop as well as the motor could go. As a result, I opted to have a Brembo 4 pot kit installed in the front and a Brembo monoblock kit in the rear which has an integrated emergency brake. Once the brakes heat up a bit the stopping ability is fantastic and there is no fade at all.

UB DRMNG · #**212** (**permalink**) 07-28-2009, 08:47 PM

Tom,

WOW, what an interesting thread. I am glad you finally worked it out. I would have really lost it, a new car with crappy brakes and a slow fix. I think that the company was really lucky if there were no deaths or injury due to the poor binders. Good thing you don't have a fast motor!

Hi to Deb.