Ohio Speeding Ticket Ruling

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

You can hire a good lawyer, plead not guilty and ask for a jury trial. The cost to the state would be excessive and they will offer you a plea. Not cheap, but effective.

[Fordzilla]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

I respect the info the law guys have posted about their training and experiences-bottom line is they always use electrons as backup for their observation.

But I'd like to understand-is speed judgment based in a target's speed relative to other moving traffic around it? Or are officers trained to gauge a single moving object's speed? If traffic is moving at a steady 80 mph and I'm going 86 is that detectable, and to what end since all traffic is already 25 over posted limit?

Further, who (if either) is more likely to get a citation-a red C6 going 72 or a gray Hyundai going 78? Are these subjective evaluations or is the faster car always correctly stopped regardless of a vehicle's perceived speed capability?

Chas, Officers are trained in both a single object's speed & an object's speed relative to other moving objects around it. It comes from hands on experience. Training was a week of sitting with a radar gun on the highway for 8 hours straight each day doing nothing but estimating a vehicle's speed & using the radar gun to check the actual speed against the estimate. After a week you get quite good, actually you get within 3 miles an hour as that is what you have to be to pass the test. You continue to improve & sharpen your skills your entire time you are actually working Traffic detail. That's just natural- the more you do something, the better you get at it.

Now, Things can get confusing real fast with multiple moving targets, the dispatcher barking orders, your coffee spilling & your green horn partner talking about .....whatever. Anyway, yes, mistakes can be made. It's not a fail safe system but is the best system there is (Back when I was working it). Observe, Estimate the speed & use the radar to back up/confirm the speed.

Who gets a ticket?, well that's Officer's discretion. I wrote speeding tickets on about 25% of my stops. I issued verbal warnings about 75% of the time. I used speeding as probable cause to stop a vehicle & if everything was in order, let the violator go with a warning.
Now, alot of times that speeding stop leads to all kinds of other charges. Not only vehicle & traffic law stuff but drug running, smuggling, etc. Caught alot of bad guys because they were simply going to fast. Either over the posted limit or- speed too fast for conditions.........now that's a whole other can 'o' worms..

[Fordzilla]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Further, who (if either) is more likely to get a citation-a red C6 going 72 or a gray Hyundai going 78? Are these subjective evaluations or is the faster car always correctly stopped regardless of a vehicle's perceived speed capability?

On this one, (assuming they are traveling together down the highway in say a posted 55 zone) I stop the car that in my opinion or best guess may have other violations. I look at the appearance of the car, the driver, & any info I can discern in the small amount of time you have to make the decision. (Like the rear end sagging from 300 lbs of crack, etc) If nothing strikes me as being out of the ordinary & both cars seem to be just speeding cars, I would pull the faster clocked vehicle or even both if possible.

[ERA Chas]

Ford,
Thanks for the great, candid answers. I have a clearer understanding of things I've seen over the years.

I have been 'paced' many times from 1/4 mile back and close-up in my 'blind spot' off the left rear quarter. I knew I was being 'looked over' and you've explained why.

3400 RPM in the Cobra sounds like Armageddon but always with traffic flow and I've never been stopped. But I felt they were waiting for me to be an ass and blast through the surrounding pack. Failing that they always then just pull on past at 85 and go down the road.

[Stoney FFR]

Originally Posted by Fordzilla

On this one, (assuming they are traveling together down the highway in say a posted 55 zone) I stop the car that in my opinion or best guess may have other violations. I look at the appearance of the car, the driver, & any info I can discern in the small amount of time you have to make the decision. (Like the rear end sagging from 300 lbs of crack, etc) If nothing strikes me as being out of the ordinary & both cars seem to be just speeding cars, I would pull the faster clocked vehicle or even both if possible.

As Fordzilla alludes to, it's all officer discretion. The good cops that continually make great arrests have a sense of intuition about them that is hard to put a finger on. It might come down to pulling out behind both of the vehicles and then watching what both of the drivers do. One of the drivers might immediately pull to the right and stop while the other one guns it or starts making erratic lane changes. Or, maybe one of the drivers starts throwing dope out the windows. Or, maybe one of the drivers or it's passengers start making furtive movements inside the car. Or, maybe C-6 Covettes have been getting stolen lately, so the Vette gets stopped. Or, maybe there is a crime bulletin out for a Hyundai that has been involved in a string of burglaries lately, so the Hyundai gets stopped.

But yes, if all things are equal, typically the fastest vehicle will be stopped.

I encourage anybody that is seriously interested in this topic to go to your local police department and schedule a time to ride out with a patrol officer for a shift. You might find that it's an eye opening experience, much more so than an episode of COPS..

[BT SNAKE]

Amen Brother Stoney!

Most people are OK with their Police. But there are those that feel that the traffic cops are out to get their quota and don't give a hoot about their rights.
You got bad cops in this world as well as bad judges ,lawyers and just about any other occupation.
I have always suggested that folks take one friday night and ride with a squad. Man! does their perspective change. That change happens when the oberve the citizenry that they normally don't see. Police are all too familiar with these. The domesic calls and the bar fights. All this mixed in with armed robbery calls and an alarm or two.
I've always maintained that a police officer can earn his career salary in 8 seconds.
God bless our boys in blue. If not for them there would be Anarchy.

Hersh

[Stoney FFR]

Originally Posted by ZOERA-SC7XX

You can hire a good lawyer, plead not guilty and ask for a jury trial. The cost to the state would be excessive and they will offer you a plea. Not cheap, but effective.

I'm sure things are different all over the country, so I only speak for my local court. I retired last year from being a full-time officer/detective and now work part time for the same PD in the capacity of a Bailiff. I see what happens in court all of the time now.

People don't get a better plea offer just because a Jury Trial was requested. Additionally, at a certain point in the Jury Trial process, all deal offers go off of the table. The court that I work in is always willing to offer a "standard deal" to attorneys that is a few dollars better than what would be offered to citizens. Generally a citizen can get a "deferred disposition" offer without an attorney by just coming down and entering a plea of Guilty or No-Contest and asking for the deferral option. Deferred disposition will result in a fine and driving probation for a few months. Upon completion of the probation period, the charge is dismissed. I believe most cities also offer a Defensive Driving option which will also get the charge dismissed after completion of the DD course.

Of course you can hire an attorney and he can get the same dismissal options, but you then have to pay for the attorney too. A large percentage of the population think an attorney works some sort of magic by getting the above mentioned deals, when they are actually available to anyone that qualifies and bothers to ask. There are several local attorneys I know that make a very good living off of "processing" traffic citations for clients and rarely ever step foot into a courtroom.

Jury trails aren't really expensive because the city is already paying the judge, attorney, bailiff and clerk to be at work anyway. The only extra expense would be paying 6 jurors for one day, which doesn't amount to much. They are just a pain because they take 2-4 hours out of the day. We average 5-8 jury trials a week.

[bobcowan]

Firs, I generally ignore the thought of a crooked cop who lies and cheats to get a ticket through the court. Their numbers are so small that I consider them to be a red herring.

There's a fine line here, and it has to do with freedom. Speeding is a crime - an expensive crime. One that can have far reaching effects. The judge says, "What's the crime?". "Speeding, 75 in a 55". "What evidence do you have?" "Because I said so." "Well, good enough for me!"

Would you accept that answer for any other crime?

In this country, we've lost due process for traffic crimes. Especially DWI. Don't get me wrong, I think people who do stupid stuff and put other people at risk should be cought and punished. But how much of our liberties are we willing to give up? It's a fine line that wavers back and forth. Is 10% most of the time close enough? Maybe if the stakes weren't so high.

[Stoney FFR]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

Firs, I generally ignore the thought of a crooked cop who lies and cheats to get a ticket through the court. Their numbers are so small that I consider them to be a red herring.

There's a fine line here, and it has to do with freedom. Speeding is a crime - an expensive crime. One that can have far reaching effects. The judge says, "What's the crime?". "Speeding, 75 in a 55". "What evidence do you have?" "Because I said so." "Well, good enough for me!"

Would you accept that answer for any other crime?

In this country, we've lost due process for traffic crimes. Especially DWI. Don't get me wrong, I think people who do stupid stuff and put other people at risk should be cought and punished. But how much of our liberties are we willing to give up? It's a fine line that wavers back and forth. Is 10% most of the time close enough? Maybe if the stakes weren't so high.

I agree with your concerns Bob. I only wish there was a better alternative.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Originally Posted by Stoney FFR

I'm sure things are different all over the country, so I only speak for my local court. I retired last year from being a full-time officer/detective and now work part time for the same PD in the capacity of a Bailiff. I see what happens in court all of the time now.

People don't get a better plea offer just because a Jury Trial was requested. Additionally, at a certain point in the Jury Trial process, all deal offers go off of the table. The court that I work in is always willing to offer a "standard deal" to attorneys that is a few dollars better than what would be offered to citizens. Generally a citizen can get a "deferred disposition" offer without an attorney by just coming down and entering a plea of Guilty or No-Contest and asking for the deferral option. Deferred disposition will result in a fine and driving probation for a few months. Upon completion of the probation period, the charge is dismissed. I believe most cities also offer a Defensive Driving option which will also get the charge dismissed after completion of the DD course.

Of course you can hire an attorney and he can get the same dismissal options, but you then have to pay for the attorney too. A large percentage of the population think an attorney works some sort of magic by getting the above mentioned deals, when they are actually available to anyone that qualifies and bothers to ask. There are several local attorneys I know that make a very good living off of "processing" traffic citations for clients and rarely ever step foot into a courtroom.

Jury trails aren't really expensive because the city is already paying the judge, attorney, bailiff and clerk to be at work anyway. The only extra expense would be paying 6 jurors for one day, which doesn't amount to much. They are just a pain because they take 2-4 hours out of the day. We average 5-8 jury trials a week.

Cops will not show up in court for a speeding ticket. At least not around here. The court gives you a new trial date and notify the cop (witness), who doesn't get paid for his time there and never shows up. Lawyers will get a minimum 500 bucks to show their face in court too. Not cheap, but you can call their bluff. Usually end up with a small fine in return for a plea. No jury will convict you for speeding unless there was an accident with injury/damage.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Cops will not show up in court for a speeding ticket. At least not around here. The court gives you a new trial date and notify the cop (witness), who doesn't get paid for his time there and never shows up. Lawyers will get a minimum 500 bucks to show their face in court too. Not cheap, but you can call their bluff. Usually end up with a small fine in return for a plea. No jury will convict you for speeding unless there was an accident with injury/damage.

I'm sure each area is different, cops around here ALWAYS show up for court, and they get paid to do it.......If they are on duty, no big deal, they're getting paid anyway, if they're off duty at the time, the court clerk gives them a signed document stating they were indeed in court that day the cop will be paid overtime for that day.........

Around here, traffic violations are handled by a judge, no jury trial....the only way you would get a jury trial is if there were injured persons because of ones actions and then it would be more than a traffic violation anyway........

David

[rustyBob]

I look at it this way ...If you get caught speeding MAN UP and take the punishment...
if you run the posted speed limit in the slow lane then chances are you wount get a
ticket for speeding because everybody else will be passing you...
as for the cops....treat them with respect and they will return the respect
act like an azz and your on your own....fool.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Talking about due process here.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by rustyBob

I look at it this way ...If you get caught speeding MAN UP and take the punishment...
if you run the posted speed limit in the slow lane then chances are you wount get a
ticket for speeding because everybody else will be passing you...
as for the cops....treat them with respect and they will return the respect
act like an azz and your on your own....fool.

You may not wanna hear a true story, but here goes anyway:

Back in December of 1975, I was fixing to get out of school and was hired for a job in the southern part of the state. I had just bought a brand new Ford F-100. I had spent the day in what would be my new home town, looking for a place to live. On the way home, about 15 miles from home, I drove thru a small "hick" town which I have done many hundreds of times before, driving the posted speed limit or a few miles an hour less. "Bubba the cop" was parked in front of a mom/pop grocery store and he was sitting on the check out counter trying to make time with the new, young check-out girl..... I drive right on minding my own busines when I see Bubba's flashing lights behind me, so I pull over, he pulls over behind me and gets out, tells me I was speeding thru town like a race-car driver, I politely ask "how fast was I going", he said "too fast", I ask "what did you clock me on the radar at", knowing full well the car was parked, not even facing my direction for a radar reading, Bubba says" I didn't clock you on the radar, it's been broken for a month now, "I observed you speeding and that's that".

Being taught to respect my elders and cops, I politely took the ticket which stated: "Speeding:15 mph in excess of the posted limit".
So when I get home I tell my parents and they jumped my butt for speeding as cops are never wrong, at least in their mind anyway. For days I continued to tell my parents I was not speeding and they finally called the store to talk to someone there and possibly verify my story, they did and were told the cop said "he was going to get that kid in that shiny new truck" right before he got his big fat a$$ off the counter and came after me...

So I go and talk to the town judge in my home town and ask him for his advise on the matter, he told me to go talk to the city judge in hickville, who just happens to be the mayor also,he said he knew the man and he was a "fair man", that went well, the mayor/judge told me the fine was $75.00 for speeding and if I went to HIS city court and contested it, the fine was automatically doubled and I was automaticaly guilty, thank you very much..........

Soo much for honest cops/judges!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I did get even,I waited the 30 days before paying the fine, by then I was living and working in another city a hundred miles away and wrote them a check on my closed out checking account, which naturally bounced BIG TIME....my mom is the one that suggested I do that,with dad's blessings.....they came to my mamma's house 3 times looking for me as they had an arrest warrant for me, she told them the truth, that I was living in another city a hundred miles away....

For the next 2 years when coming home to visit I had to detour around that town!!!!!!!!!!!! For all I know, they may still have a warrant on me!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW: I've had 4 or 5 speeding tickets since I began driving in 1970, deserved all of them, never argued with a cop, was always respectful and courteous and that has gotten me more warnings than tickets, but not all cops are honest, no matter what you think!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[Stoney FFR]

Originally Posted by ZOERA-SC7XX

Cops will not show up in court for a speeding ticket. At least not around here. The court gives you a new trial date and notify the cop (witness), who doesn't get paid for his time there and never shows up. Not cheap, but you can call their bluff. Usually end up with a small fine in return for a plea. No jury will convict you for speeding unless there was an accident with injury/damage.

Officers around here are paid OT if they have to come in off-duty, but the court scheduling system does a pretty good job of matching court appearances to an officer's on-duty time. Additionally, if the officer fails to show for a scheduled court appearance he is subject to disciplinary action, just as if he failed to show up for his regular duty assignment.

Lawyers will get a minimum 500 bucks to show their face in court too.

Well I guess lawyers have a hard time making a living in Meriden then. It would make no sense to pay a lawyer $500 to represent against a $200 traffic ticket, unless it was to prevent a ticket from going on someone's driving history for a Commercial D/L or someone that was almost out of driving points.

notify the cop (witness), who doesn't get paid for his time there

Are you really sure officers don't get paid for court?? I'm tempted to call Meriden PD and ask them what they heck is going on up there. That's really bad if that's the case. Sooo, if one of the officer gets tied up on a two week court hearing he just skips a pay check??

No jury will convict you for speeding unless there was an accident with injury/damage

Okay, if you say that's the way it is in Meriden, CT. I'll have to take your word for it. I feel confident that most cities don't have a complete and total break down of the judicial system and you can be easily found guilty of Speeding in a court of law, if you are in fact guilty. Jurors around here take their job serious, are sworn to do a job and tend to follow through with their sworn duty and render Guilty verdicts when appropriate. I certainly wouldn't recommend following your advice in N. Texas.

20/20 or Dateline should do a show on the Meriden, CT. Courts and Prosecutors Office and have them explain why no Guilty verdicts are being rendered. I would expect that quiet of bit of enforcement is being conducted out on IH-91, IH-691 and Hwy. 15/66..

I knew things were different up there in the NE, but I had no idea it was a completely different world up there...

DAVID - There are bad eggs in all walks of life. I don't think anyone is disputing that..

[Fordzilla]

Traffic ticket appearances in the local courts here are scheduled for evenings. Officers get a minimum of 4 hours OT if they are called in to appear. Midnight & Day shift guys always made good money appearing in evening court for Traffic Tickets. 4 to 12 shift guys made good money for appearing at criminal trials at the County level which are scheduled during the day.

Bob, I too understand your concern but like I said before, It's still the best system in the world. (IMHO). Yes, There are some bad apples. There are in every walk of life and in every profession.

[rustyBob]

well i to have a story.....
i have been driveing for 36 years...i got 3 speeding tickets when
i was 19 and i havent had one since....
i have never caused an accident and have only been in 1 and that
was when i was a kid when my dad was driveing....i have come close though
i have driven for a liveing more than 15 years of the time i have had my
license and have seen a lot of stupid crap happen on the roads....
i have a respect for cars and what they are capable doing when being
misused....i have seen the blood, guts, and gore....death by auto is ugly.
just be safe and considerate of others.

[JWilly]

This is somewhat off-topic but related. I recieved this from a car club member friend. I cannot verify its accuracy but with the way things are going it seems probable. This is about Ohio.

Back in December a bill, HB 191 (aka the "Monica Durban Law"), passed the House by a landslide and will soon be passed by the Senate if our voices are not heard. I'm not talking about an annoying emissions law or crazy rule about historical tags. The bill will instruct police officers to SEIZE your vehicle and take away your license for a year if they see rapid acceleration, fast driving, burning tires, or street racing. They won't impound it. They will TAKE it and sell it at a state auction! Not only that, but it loosely defines the term "street racing" to include just about anything. Revving your engine at a stop light can be considered taunting or promoting a street race. Again, it is up to the police officer's discretion. If you have a car that could be seen as "souped up", you'll be targeted. If you are justwatching someone displaying any form of "street racing", you are equally guilty because you are promoting illegal activity!

A couple years ago a young lady was put in a 6-month coma when a drunk driver was racing a friend on an on-ramp to I-70. The drunk driver was killed. Instead of focusing on the fact that the kid was drunk, they are deciding to "increase the penalties" to "help deter people from entering in a race" and essentially declaring war on any and all performance vehicles in our state!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

DAVID - There are bad eggs in all walks of life. I don't think anyone is disputing that..

Joe: I agree 100%, every profession has it's bad side, I was trying to point out that there are some in law enforcement that think they are God and can do whatever they please,right or wrong, I think that number is small, but still there...........

The bill will instruct police officers to SEIZE your vehicle and take away your license for a year if they see rapid acceleration, fast driving, burning tires, or street racing. They won't impound it. They will TAKE it and sell it at a state auction! Not only that, but it loosely defines the term "street racing" to include just about anything. Revving your engine at a stop light can be considered taunting or promoting a street race. Again, it is up to the police officer's discretion. If you have a car that could be seen as "souped up", you'll be targeted. If you are justwatching someone displaying any form of "street racing", you are equally guilty because you are promoting illegal activity!

there is a similar law in Louisiana, I'm not 100% sure, but I think they can impound the car for 30 days at your expense, I'm 100% that they can suspend your license for 1 year, fines are stiff and you can get up to 30 days in jail for the most severe cases.....I know one guy that is a "dedicated" street racer, he got caught, they didn't take his car, but took his license for a year...he needed that and more.......

well i to have a story.....
i have been driveing for 36 years...i got 3 speeding tickets when
i was 19 and i havent had one since....
i have never caused an accident and have only been in 1 and that
was when i was a kid when my dad was driveing....i have come close though
i have driven for a liveing more than 15 years of the time i have had my
license and have seen a lot of stupid crap happen on the roads....
i have a respect for cars and what they are capable doing when being
misused....i have seen the blood, guts, and gore....death by auto is ugly.
just be safe and considerate of others.

This coming august, I will have been driving 40 years, been in 3 accidents, one with dad driving (not his fault) one with my sister driving (her fault) and this past september I was driving and got t-boned by an idiot in a flatbed truck, pretty nasty, totaled my car and sent me to the hospital (not my fault),I've been actively road racing for the last 7 years with no on-track incidents at speeds up to 150 mph......

Since 1994, I drive an average of 50,000 miles a year, and the only people that see more blood/guts/gore and death by auto accidents than me are cops....I'm in the insurance auto claims industry, I see on average 1,000 wrecked cars a year!!!!!!!!! I deal with cops on a local/county/state level daily as part of my job......the 14 years prior to that, I worked in an auto body repair shop fixing those wrecked cars, so, I can say I've seen it all in the last 30 years...................

David

[lovehamr]

HB 191 has been revised. Much of what had people up in a roar is gone or rewriten. It looks like the main impetus was to create the offense of "street racing manslaughter." You can see the revisions here (scroll down to Sec. 4511.251):

http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/b...?ID=128_HB_191

Some things have remained in the bill which I am surprised at, like inclusion the N2O as an aggravating charge. But other things like charging spectators was removed entirely. It also defines street racing as: "the operation of two or more vehicles from a point side by side at accelerating speeds in a competitive attempt to out-distance each other or the operation of one or more vehicles over a common selected course, from the same point to the same point, wherein timing is made of the participating vehicles involving competitive accelerations or speeds."

After reading through the revised law, it sounds pretty much on target to me.
If you race in the street, you're a bad boy (1st degree misdemeanor).
If you race in the street and use N2O or have multiple convictions for street racing, etc. now it's a 5th degree felony.
If you race in the street and it caused serious physical harm = 3rd degree felony
If you race in the street and have combinations of people hurt, multiple convictions, N2O etc. that will be a 2nd degree felony.

If convicted of a misdemeanor you (among other things) loose the car for 180 days.
If convicted of a Felony = by, by, car forever. Hello jail etc.

Except for the odd inclusion of N2O as an aggravating charge I'm having a hard time faulting the law. If you're being a D/A (I don't mean District Attorney) and get someone hurt it should be on you.

JMHO, Steve