65S/C 427 side oiler.... am I wrong@$#%!

[dlotz]

Ok

So now that I am just about done building my 427FE for my FFR cobra I wonder if I had the wrong info in trying to be origional! I am trying to replicate the 66 S/C

I have a 65 sideoiler, Holley 3300/3301 BC/BD carbs (origional), 65 iron MR heads and had to go with a Bluethunder MR aftermarket intake.

So talking with a guy today that worked on a lot of theses car in the day and has a wealth of knowledge, told me that the 427 cobras used a low rise intake with BJ/BK carbs and a 5 degree wedge under the carps to get the motor to fit under the hood..... The MR would be too tall

So my initial reaction was how does a low rise intake fit on MR heads? Also, my Shelby American Registry says the 427 S/C had BC/BD carbs

So, which was it? MR with BC/BD or low rise with BJ/BK like on the Galaxy 500's?

[Excaliber]

I'm running a high riser, heads and intake, mine fits. Maybe the motor mounts on an FFR sit to high for the FE? The car was originally designed with a small block in mind. No way I'd run a low riser! I'd be surprised to find that many, if any, 427 original Cobras ran a low riser??? 428 street cars would be more like it because they didn't have a hood scoop. My carbs protrude THROUGH the hood opening and "just fit" inside the scoop.

[Tony Ripepi]

Good Morning,

You can read this article from Sports Car Graphics magazine from November 1965 and make up your mind as to what you need.

It is on the ERA website and download in PDF to your system will get your own copy for future reference.

http://www.erareplicas.com/history/scg_427/index.htm

Tony R.

[dlotz]

My question isn't about fitmit.....I WILL MAKE MY (MR) ENGINE FIT! LOL

The question was if the 427S/C had the MR head/LR intake combo with BJ/BK carbs.

[elmariachi]

I believe the Cobra S/C engines were medium riser and here were the carbs used arranged by CSX #s: http://www.nvsaac.com/shelbyparts/carburetors.htm

[Excaliber]

Hmmm, I was always under the impression port matching would be a problem when miss matching heads and intake on an FE. A BIG problem with the High Riser setup, maybe only a small problem with a low profile intake on MR heads?

While I love my dual fours I'm seriously considering a single four high rise (gotta match the heads) with a center pivot float for a better road race setup.

[ERA Chas]

Didn't the S/C's only have a single cathedral bowl Holley like the Comp cars?

From el's list:"1965 Cobra 427 S/C-CSX3001-CSX3053 Carburetor C5AF-9510-BE & BC or BD 780 CFM Holley List # 3155" Ron?

[dlotz]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

I believe the Cobra S/C engines were medium riser and here were the carbs used arranged by CSX #s: http://www.nvsaac.com/shelbyparts/carburetors.htm

Now that is odd.... That website lists the 427 S/C as 1965. The S/C was not available until 1966 (First one in Jan 1966 to be exact). The S/C were made to sell off the remaining 1965 Comp cars that did not sell.

It lists the standard 427 (non-S/C) as BJ/BK?

I wonder if the low rise and BJ-BK were used on the 428 blocks later on in the cobra production.


Yes, I did read that the Comps were single carb 427's and the dual 4bbl were in street cars, but I cannot find any history on this to confirm.

Then again, it is hard to confirm history when no two cobras are a like. maybe there is a cobra out there with MR heads, LR intake and BJ/BK carbs because that is what was available on the shelf at the time......Or specific to that buyer.

Also, I thought it was the manifold to head angle difference, not ports, between the MR/LR that made them noncompatable.

This is an interesting topic. Hopefully some of the other EXPERTS will chime in?

[Tony Ripepi]

Page 4 of the article linked above.......It is on the ERA website and download in PDF to your system will get your own copy for future reference.

http://www.erareplicas.com/history/scg_427/index.htm



In the street the engine is an out-of-the-box Grand National 427. fitted with two AFB Holley carburetors as used in the Mustang. These have fairly small primary venturis and big secondaries. Thus the street Cobra is fed gently at the outset and is, if nothing, more docile than the 289, if one remembers that the first throttle stop is only a detent to remind you that the big secondary vents are about to open. On the race car the feeding is done by one great huge Holley 780 CFM as used on NASCAR machinery, sitting in a bathtub-like cold air box. Even this one s fairly docile at first, but it comes on much more rapidly. The carburetors on the dual set-up tend to flood or starve on very tight turns; the big single, with its concentric float, does not - most definitely not.
Copy and pasted......TR

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Didn't the S/C's only have a single cathedral bowl Holley like the Comp cars?

From el's list:"1965 Cobra 427 S/C-CSX3001-CSX3053 Carburetor C5AF-9510-BE & BC or BD 780 CFM Holley List # 3155" Ron?

Most of the S/Cs had 2 x4 on a medium riser (BC & BD). The Comp configuration was a single four barrel, BE (3255). This would have probably been the same set up if an S/C had a 1x4 fitted.

Most of the street 427s had 2x4 with most on a low riser (BJ and BK). Some had a 1x4 BV (3255-1),

I believe a few of the 428s came with a single Autolite carb.

(These are notes from prior threads on this topic)

[Dubiwan]

Ron my hs classmate purchased his 427 S/C CSX3030 new from Shelby Automotive in Venice Ca in Jan 66. Dante Cordone was the sales manager. Rons was delivered with the dual 4 setup however he was told at the factory they would put ANYTHING onthe car he so desired including blowers et all. He took it with the twin 4 barrel setup and once he got home her reversed the rear carb and put center pivot carb bowls on both carbs so it would NOT flood out on sharp corners. Had to manufacture some trick linkage to hook up the Hollys but it worked great.
Driving back to Nebraska with the car in late Jan he heard a rod start knocking in mid Arizona but as long as he kept it under 55mph the noise went away and he maintained oil pressure. Make it back to Lincoln had theengine pulled and redid the rods and bearings. As it turned out a whole bunch of the early 427s of that year had dirt problems from the factory. Ford issued a tech bulletin authorizing repair on all affected engines. This release of course was prior to ford installing 428s in the cobras.
To my knowledge all of the S/Cs had the 427 side oiler.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Dubiwan

Ron my hs classmate purchased his 427 S/C CSX3030 new from Shelby Automotive in Venice Ca in Jan 66. .

CSX3030 was the first S/C sold.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Most of the S/Cs had 2 x4 on a medium riser (BC & BD). The Comp configuration was a single four barrel, BE (3255). This would have probably been the same set up if an S/C had a 1x4 fitted.

Most of the street 427s had 2x4 with most on a low riser (BJ and BK). Some had a 1x4 BV (3255-1),

I believe a few of the 428s came with a single Autolite carb.

(These are notes from prior threads on this topic)

Thanks. That's a bewildering assortment. Too much to ask-what are the differences among all those carbs? Like 3255 and 3255-1? BC / D / E / J / K / V's?

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by Tony Ripepi

Page 4 of the article linked above.......It is on the ERA website and download in PDF to your system will get your own copy for future reference.

http://www.erareplicas.com/history/scg_427/index.htm



In the street the engine is an out-of-the-box Grand National 427. fitted with two AFB Holley carburetors as used in the Mustang. These have fairly small primary venturis and big secondaries. Thus the street Cobra is fed gently at the outset and is, if nothing, more docile than the 289, if one remembers that the first throttle stop is only a detent to remind you that the big secondary vents are about to open. On the race car the feeding is done by one great huge Holley 780 CFM as used on NASCAR machinery, sitting in a bathtub-like cold air box. Even this one s fairly docile at first, but it comes on much more rapidly. The carburetors on the dual set-up tend to flood or starve on very tight turns; the big single, with its concentric float, does not - most definitely not.
Copy and pasted......TR

I can't verify any of this. However I can verify the info about Mustangs is WRONG. They never used an AFB. The Shelby 'stangs used Holleys and the only AFB's I recall were on the early dual quad 289 Cobra intakes. Later they went to Holleys as well. Illustrating that magazine writers aren't all that well informed/knowledgable.
As I re-read it I realize it said AFB Holley. My apologies...I don't know about those, I'm only familiar with the Carter AFB.

[elmariachi]

I have found all the literature here http://www.mustangtek.com/Litterature.html to be very helpful, especially the 5th and 6th books down on the first page. Lots of carb and intake specs.

[Excaliber]

Woodz, your not alone, I never heard of a "AFB-Holley". Some one is confused, perhaps the author of the magazine article as well?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Most of the S/Cs had 2 x4 on a medium riser (BC & BD). The Comp configuration was a single four barrel, BE (3255). This would have probably been the same set up if an S/C had a 1x4 fitted.

Most of the street 427s had 2x4 with most on a low riser (BJ and BK). Some had a 1x4 BV (3255-1),

I believe a few of the 428s came with a single Autolite carb.

(These are notes from prior threads on this topic)

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Thanks. That's a bewildering assortment. Too much to ask-what are the differences among all those carbs? Like 3255 and 3255-1? BC / D / E / J / K / V's?

Holley has a reference book on their carbs, and the # 3255 is listed as a factory carb for a 427 engine ( I assume a crate 427 MR engine). The 3255-1 was listed by Holley as a factory carb for a "race 427 Hi-Riser engine", both the 3255 and 3255-1's were rated as 780 cfm with the "leMans" bowls.

Early on, I believe the 427 comp cars were advertised as being equipped with Hi-Riser engines, although the vast majority of them as well the S/C's were equipped with either the medium risers or some with low risers. I believe there were a couple of cobra's that came equipped with high-riser heads, and I think the Turd had these heads at one point, as the Hi-Riser at one point was Ford's crate "Nascar" engine, and probably came with the 3255-1 carb, which is rarer of the 2. I believe both carbs are identical except for the List #.

[dcdoug]

I have seen the 3255s also referred to as 3155s on this page (http://www.nvsaac.com/shelbyparts/carburetors.htm). I assume that is just a misprint and the right number is 3255?

I have a 4160 on my car now, which is about as easy as it gets to tune. How much harder to tune would the correct 3255 be? Any real difference between the BE and BV variants on the 3255?

Doug

[elmariachi]

For "fun" I bought a restored 3255 in March "just to play with." After messing with it for a couple of weeks with my Innovate O2 setup, regardless of PVs, mixture settings etc I was unable to get the idle mixture right. It was loading up, idling rough, fouling plugs etc. So I sent it to Keith Craft to be dyno tuned. It should be back in my hands tomorrow and I'll post up the outcome. I can't see what would make it quirky, but it seems quirky. Looks cool though, so I got that goin' for me.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

For "fun" I bought a restored 3255 in March "just to play with." After messing with it for a couple of weeks with my Innovate O2 setup, regardless of PVs, mixture settings etc I was unable to get the idle mixture right. It was loading up, idling rough, fouling plugs etc. So I sent it to Keith Craft to be dyno tuned. It should be back in my hands tomorrow and I'll post up the outcome. I can't see what would make it quirky, but it seems quirky. Looks cool though, so I got that goin' for me.

Definitely interested to hear how it works after you get it back. Holley still makes them in small batch runs from time to time (available through Carls Ford). Exact in every way including part numbers, etc, just without a date code. I may be interested in playing around with one as well. Easy to put the 4160 back on if i can't get it to run right.