Original 289/Weber Carb Question

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Alfa02

Glen, that motor XHP-260-2 still resides in Pete Lovely's "Zoomer". Pete bought the motor from Carroll back in 1965-67? to install in the Zoomer, since it was basically a 1/3 scale larger Louts Super 7, I wonder if those DCOE's and manifold were for that car? I can contact long time owner after Pete (And long time friend of Pete) to see if he has any info. of that set-up. Interesting Cheers TommyRot.

Interesting.

I almost bought the Zoomer twice, damned near said yes both times before I realized we didn't "need" any more old cars. When I became aware of the car the first time it was not for sale and it showed less miles than 400 miles showing on the odometer. The current induction system at the time was a High Performance 260 only cast iron intake and a High Performance 390 Police Interceptor Ford 4100 4V carburetor. (Experimental High Performance 260 cast iron intakes were different. The current ignition distributor at the time was a High Performance 260 dual unit and not one of the Experimental High Performance 260 dual point units. I have the engineering information and assembly dates for both assemblies I recorded quite a few years ago.)

https://www.fantasyjunction.com/sold...oomer/overview

[CompClassics]

The 46 IDA was a replacement carburetor for the Porsche Four Cam engines that were originally factory equipped with 46 IDM carburetors. There is no factory literature that calls out a 46 IDA carburetor only the IDM carburetors.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by CompClassics

The 46 IDA was a replacement carburetor for the Porsche Four Cam engines that were originally factory equipped with 46 IDM carburetors. There is no factory literature that calls out a 46 IDA carburetor only the IDM carburetors.

Thanks.

[Alfa02]

Very interesting Dan, as I spoke to Drew (Cobra Experience) last year, about also buying the Zoomer and bringing it back home to Washington. Plus I'm a huge Pete Lovely fan, I was allowed in Pete's estate, before the unwashed masses were let in, I have many one-off pieces that Pete owned. Even his org. 50's wood trophies, and my prized piece, his Les Leston ashtray from his desk, I could only imagine all the famous race driver that used it. Butch Dennison (Pete's friend and business partner owned it after his passing) I would have brought from him, if I knew he was going sell it. I can get more info. from him. Cheers TommyRot.

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by xb-60

I have another picture of the DCOE setup on 260 XHP-260-2 .....

Attachment 35692


Cheers,
Glen

this picture is part of the first FIA Cobra homologation 79 (8th Oct. 1962)

On page 8 of this homologation these carbs are described as

"Side Draft 58 MM Weber Carburetors"

[Gaz64]

I have yet to see a 58 DCOE carb, so since the photos show DCOE carbs, that list of options must be a misprint.
In the photos, the carb tops and the mounting flange are DCOE, (55,50,48,45,42,40,38mm), versus the upright parallel mounting of DCO 3 carbs that were available as 58mm.
Going by the airhorn (trumpet) size, I'd say 48mm, possibly even 45mm. This is only a 260.

[xb-60]

Gary,

What can be said....except that CS signed it so it must be true....surely?




Cheers
Glen

[Gaz64]

The photos are DCOEs, which at the time, the largest would have been 48mm, 50s and 55s came later.
DCO 3 carbs are completely different in many ways, the mounting flange is the first major difference, and hence the carbs don't interchange.

DCO 3 and DCO 4 are Ferrari 58mm carbs, and very rare.

If Carroll did run DCO 3 58mm carbs, the manifold would've had to have the different flange mounting.

Note on Page 9, where the statement of the carb rarity, and the consequent option of 48 IDA downdraft carbs.

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...9_group_gt.pdf

[xb-60]

Interesting document.

In sheet 11 of CS’s letter (dated “Sept. 11, 1962”) it's stated that “We certify that in excess of 100 cars identical with the basic specification stated in this application were completed on Oct. 1, 1962”
Looking in the Cobra Registry, Cobra CSX2019 was the highest numbered car in the shipment that unloaded in LA on 1st October 1962

There was some critical comment back in the '60s about Enzo Ferrari over-estimating the production numbers of 250GTOs (and other sports/racing Ferraris). It would seem that CS had similar myopia...

Cheers!
Glen

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

The photos are DCOEs, which at the time, the largest would have been 48mm, 50s and 55s came later.
DCO 3 carbs are completely different in many ways, the mounting flange is the first major difference, and hence the carbs don't interchange.

DCO 3 and DCO 4 are Ferrari 58mm carbs, and very rare.

If Carroll did run DCO 3 58mm carbs, the manifold would've had to have the different flange mounting.

Note on Page 9, where the statement of the carb rarity, and the consequent option of 48 IDA downdraft carbs.

https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/def...9_group_gt.pdf

page 9 is the addition for Sebring ‘63 where the SAI Cars raced the first time with Weber 48 IDM

[Dan Case]

I hope this link works. If it does this is a day one picture of the Cobra 8V induction kit offered at a suggested retail price of $1,230.70 in 1963. There was even a Ford Motor Company "COBRA KIT" sales number for it.

https://archive.petersen.org/filesto...7+16%3A02%3A43


This was the most complete installation kit ever offered and it was aimed at Cobra roadsters. As complete as the image is some small parts are not shown. By mid 1964 a very much less complete kit for $695.00 was offered (48 IDA/IDA1 carburetors) and installers had to figure out lots little details on their own. By 1965 the kits were down to $595.00.


With some variability in parts this is the type system with 48 IDM1/IDM5 carburetors was used until the 48 IDA/IDA1 carburetors reached the USA circa late March or early April 1964.

[1795]

Dan,

That kit looked pretty complete. the link worked just fine. Thanks.

Jim

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by 1795

Dan,
That kit looked pretty complete. the link worked just fine. Thanks.
Jim

You are welcome. That picture is missing some of the rarest bits but pictures of installed systems cover them. It is enormously difficult to round up (or make based on borrowed samples) every original bit one piece at a time. I did it twice for Steven Juliano's cars with 48 IDA based mid 1964 systems and I am working on a summer 1963 ex-Shelby works system currently. Racers and their mechanics were sometimes pretty hard on the equipment. Parts wheeler dealers can add all kinds of damage. (It is not good to pressure wash any carburetor with water based solutions and then leave them water wet inside and out wrapped in plastic. It is not a good idea to leave bowls full of water before putting the units on shelves. It is terrible to soak them in carburetor cleaner and not bother to even dump the chemicals out of the bowls before you ship them off. <Yes, I received a foul smelling and oozing shipping box one day. The carrier wrapped the package in plastic at some point during the journey to help contain the mess.> It is a real bad idea to water wash one of these carburetors and then use compressed air to “blow” out the fuel bowl – ever seen a Weber float crushed by air pressure.) Even if you have an original small part it might not be usable, easy to restore, or restorable anymore.

If you browse that website and start at home search "Cobra". There are pictures in that folder covering decades of time BUT there are many day one pictures of Cobras and their parts. I know some of the chassis numbers as they are cars we have researched. Factory pictures were taken of many stock and optional parts and installations. Many photos were published in day one magazines and many were out takes.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

page 9 is the addition for Sebring ‘63 where the SAI Cars raced the first time with Weber 48 IDM

Ah yes, IDMs not IDAs, my oops.

[Chicagowil]

Maybe not the right area to ask, but how many original (if any) 289 Cobras were built with 3-2bbls? Always liked the look and much more streetable than the Webers from what I have heard.

Thom

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Chicagowil

Maybe not the right area to ask, but how many original (if any) 289 Cobras were built with 3-2bbls? Always liked the look and much more streetable than the Webers from what I have heard.

Thom

289's? I believe the short answer is none. CSX2034 had a 3x2 induction but it was ordered and installed by it's first private owner as I understand it.

Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by LMH

289's? I believe the short answer is none. CSX2034 had a 3x2 induction but it was ordered and installed by it's first private owner as I understand it.

Larry

I agree with Larry. I have not seen such an installation photographed or documented before retail delivery for any 260/289 c.i.d. powered Cobra. If it was done it was a secret I guess.

The regular production option was one of several low rise aluminum 4V intakes and a small Holley carburetor between about CSX2018 and CSX24something. The racing option was the 4-2V Weber carburetor system until late 1963. In late 1963 the racing Stage II 2-4V system with Carter® carburetors was added for street and race. In 1965 two new street cars and one competition car were delivered with 1965 MUSTANG GT350 intake manifolds and carburetors. Based on the Registry only about 1.4% of new street Cobras were ordered with any version of aluminum 4V intake.

PS There was a 3-2V carburetor set for 260 c.i.d. engines and a different set for 289 c.i.d. engines. Kits were to be ordered by engine size. Ford Motor Company offered installation / linkage kits for selected Ford vehicles separately.