Original 289/Weber Carb Question

[LMH]

Hey all
Back in the day, could you buy an original 289 car with Weber carbs from SA, if you so wanted it that way?
What Weber set up would it have been? (if available)
Larry

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by LMH

Hey all
Back in the day, could you buy an original 289 car with Weber carbs from SA, if you so wanted it that way?
What Weber set up would it have been? (if available)
Larry

Delivered from SAI to a retail customer with Weber carbs would have been very rare. Only one 289 Cobra was delivered new to a dealer with Webers. CSX2427

[Rick Parker]

Shelby became the importer for 48 IDA carbs. They were available through the Shelby parts division for about $1200 complete with manifold. That was HUGE money then. The customer could have arranged for the dealer to install them before delivery if desired. My guess is that since the Cobra was for all intents and purposes the fastest thing on the street even in stock trim, few people requested it at time of purchase.

[LMH]

2427 was a dragon snake model, wasn't it?
Would the Weber set up have been the same as an FIA car? (Manifold, carbs, linkage etc)

[Rick Parker]

Yes, however heads may have been different, NHRA/AHRA had limitations on what could be run in certain "Stock" or Modified classes, as they do today. Valve sizes, port enlargement etc. Generally required cam change too.

[LMH]

Good info! Thanks guys!
Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by LMH

Hey all
Back in the day, could you buy an original 289 car with Weber carbs from SA, if you so wanted it that way?
What Weber set up would it have been? (if available)
Larry

“What Weber set up would it have been?”
CSX2427 has been mentioned so that car is covered. CSX2416 was also ordered with 4-2V induction. The “What Weber set up…” question begs a complicated answer. I have done extensive research on all the Weber applications Ford / Shelby /AC Cars / Alan Mann / Wilmet used that I can document on their racing Cobras for decades plus some collateral work on FAV / Shelby on GT40s for 289s and very late the Gurney-Westlake 302s. I have a data base of carburetor serial numbers and what team had them or cars they were originally on or where they are now that I have collected. I am always interested in adding more cars and their carburetor data to my list.

You have probably noticed that there was more than one system design but you have probably not tried to count differences. So far I have documented more than a dozen different system designs that Shelby and or Ford developed, used, and or sold retail. I make design breaks wherever significant changes occurred. Carburetors used, at different times, included 48 IDM1, 48 IDM5, 48 IDA, and 48 IDA1.

There is no way to cover the evolution of Weber induction systems Ford/Shelby used on Cobras and GT40s in a forum posting. My notes and photos fill a good size notebook. My period reference publications fill a section of book shelf. The systems started out extremely complicated and nearly all hand made. The first system offered retail circa April-May 1963 had a price of $1,230.70 with Ford part number C4OZ-6B068-C. System designs evolved getting simpler with each change. As the linkages got simpler the $1,230.70 retail price dropped to $1,000 by roughly January 1964.

The biggest single change was the discontinuation of the 48 IDM family of sand cast carburetors and switching to the new die cast 48 IDAs. The linkages were mostly still hand made at the time but the package retail price dropped to $695 with a Ford part number of C5OZ-6B068-A. (Note: The May 31, 1965 retail price for individual carburetors was: 48 IDM = $241.55 and 48 IDA-1 = $150.00) In the same time frame the even simpler yet intake design with all carburetors facing the same way got to retail with 48 IDA, 48 IDA-1, or a mixture of model carburetors. All the linkage on this major redesign was supplied by vendors, Eelco® being one of them. This more ‘mass produced’ style was offered retail for $595 with a Shelby part number of S1CR-9423. The general features of this last design developed in early 1964 were maintained all the way until the end of the era. The essentially same system was offered all the way to the March 1970 for $595 as published in the Autosports Products, Inc. catalog as part number SFJK-9510-E with "SHELBY" lettered intake, individual 48 IDA-1 carburetors G1MA-9510-A were $100.00 each. 2021 edit: Ford offered a COUGAR lettered intake for Mercury Cougars in 1967. I have seen two of those systems for sale since 2017.

Of all the many variations three “designs” were what Shelby’s works racer used the most. Why three different system designs at the same time? I can only guess but since each works racer had a small subgroup of drivers, fabricators, and mechanics finishing and maintaining it, maybe different sub teams liked their ways better?

[LMH]

Dan, I'm humbled at your knowledge of Weber carbs for Cobras! Thanks for the info.

I do have one question on the dual water manifold used on the Cobra Weber intake. What did they do about a thermostat?
Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by LMH

Dan, I'm humbled at your knowledge of Weber carbs for Cobras! Thanks for the info.

I do have one question on the dual water manifold used on the Cobra Weber intake. What did they do about a thermostat?
Larry

Your welcome. Based on old photos, SAI didn't seem to use thermostats in the SAI race cars nor did I find any thermostats for Weber equipped 289s in the 1965 or 1966 SAI parts books. (In modern times, since most cars are mostly street cars, all kinds of solutions to control engine warming have been devised.)

[jeffy]

Wow! What great info!

Jim Inglese has been working diligently to recreate the "look" of the original setups:

http://www.jiminglese.com/weber5_009.htm

He has arranged for the fabrication of many of the parts that are otherwise not available. He loves working on "period correct" projects and is very generous with his time and advice if you have questions.

[Dan Case]

Most original linkage small parts for the opposed carburetor systems were pretty crude looking, most never got so much as an oiling to protect them from corrosion. I have a mint original system 99% exactly like CSX2323 and CSX2345 got (retail systems missed a few details team cars systems got) that got installed on a Cobra for a very short time, perhaps days as the installer never got the car to run correctly and removed them. The system was new old stock then and perfect except of one thing. The installer didn't notice that a pair of "extra" AN washers were under one of the base gaskets so there was an enormous vacuum leak. The system was removed intact and put in a display case in his parts business for decades until I bought it. Except for the dust accumulated in the display case the system never got dirty. The original hand fabricated parts in bare steel never got into a situation where they would rust beyond fine blush. This system has been photographed down to the tiniest details by a person with an ex-works racer so he could put his ex-works induction system back to as close to a day one appearance as he could. The pretty plating you see on all the works racers now is for the most part owner/restored added appearance ‘improvements’. If you get a chance to go through period books and magazines or the books with collections of factory images you will quickly learn how crude looking the Cobra team cars systems were. Those people back then were racing not making pretty engine compartments.

[supercobrajet]

dan...just bought a complete wber induction system 100% complete.If youcould tell me approximate vintage I would be extremely gratefull.should have it in a week and could send you all the numbers,thanks,cliff(new member) supercobrajet@hotmail.com

[SuperNovaSS]

Dan,


You seems to have a vast knowledge of these early Weber systems. Have you ever seen an intake like this one? It appears unique since it accepts a thermostat housing. It came from an estate sale so I unfortunately have no info on it. It is New Old Stock.


Thanks,

Jason

[SuperNovaSS]

more pictures:

[Dan Case]

Jason, You are not the first to ask. My opinion, a custom made part to get by some modern vintage race organization rules or another. With custom vintage race transmissions, differential housings, cylinder blocks, cylinder heads, and multiple 4V intake manifolds floating around why not an IR 8V intake? There is a Ronwill speed parts and racing business in Sweden. I sent them an inquiry and got no reply.
http://www.ronwill.se/index.php?menuitem=1

C4OZ-6B068-C was a Ford Motor Company sales, not engineering, number for the entire 8V induction kit early in 1963 into 1964 using 4 each 48 IDM1 or 48 IDM5 carburetors, all the brackets, all the linkage, and the water neck / fuel log to take out of the box and install on a Cobra. The advertised suggested retail price was $1,230.70. There were new economy type cars for sale in that price territory.



S1CR-9423 was the Shelby American sales number for the final "COBRA" version of induction kit using 4 each 48 IDA or IDA1 carburetors. The kit was aimed at racers in general and not Cobras as the layout was not submitted to or approved by the FIA for Cobra roadsters. This kit did not have everything required to outfit any kind of racer; did have a Geon® instruction booklet, water hoses, water hose clamps, and gaskets. The suggested retail price was $595.00. This version of kit was sold into 1967. Dean Moon sold the exact same kit under his sales number MWM-101. It was replaced by a similar kit in mid 1967 under number SFJK-9510-E with a “SHELBY” lettered intake. Lincoln-Mercury sold a similar kit in 1967 under number S7WK-9423 with a “COUGAR” lettered intake. All versions had a suggested retail price of $595.00.

The casting in question combines sales numbers for induction kits into one part mixing 1963 and 1965/67 marketing into one item. Somehow they missed the number for 1964-65 FIA approved for Cobras system kit under Ford sales number C5OZ-6B068-A using 48 IDA/IDA1 carburetors; this kit did not have everything required to outfit a Cobra; suggested retail price of $695.00.

The RONWILL name and other number cast in mean nothing to me except there is a speed parts business over seas that race prepares Fords by that name.

The boss for the thermostat housing is machined in the style Ford converted to roughly March 1965 (Thank you Bob Mannel's book for that detail.), which requires the correct thermostat water neck to go with it.

The size of water passages are very much larger and shaped differently than any of the known factory COBRA/SHELBY/COUGAR/FAV/Ford SK/FoMoCo intakes for 4-2V.

[SuperNovaSS]

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. This is certainly not something that was made recently and is a very heavy casting for what it is. Maybe some sort of prototype?


Jason

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by SuperNovaSS

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. This is certainly not something that was made recently and is a very heavy casting for what it is. Maybe some sort of prototype?


Jason

You are welcome. I have seen quite a few custom Ford 260/289/non-Boss 302 engine "Weber" intakes side draft and down draft over the years. There are some really strange ones out there. How about 48 mm size carburetors down the middle in a line like an Italian car for Ford 260 engines. (Ford's 255 INDY engine used four 58 DSF models down the middle...got that 4 each 58 mm carburetors on a 255 c.i.d. engine.) BUT not as strange as some of the Moon-McKay "Weber" intakes for SBC engines! I am told that the Winters company (think Chevy aluminum intakes) made the 4-2V intakes for the 45 IDM carburetors for the Chevy powered Maserati racers in the 1950s. I have no idea if that is true. The family that owned one of the Maserati racers Mr. Shelby drove tried to sell me the complete 45 IDM carburetor based induction system from the car.

[Dan Case]

If any readers have a COUGAR lettered Lincoln-Mercury 289/non-Boss 302 intake that has not been polished I sure would like to get some pictures for my archive.

I have come across two COUGAR intakes but unfortunately for my archive purposes both had been highly polished all over.

Thanks.
Dan

[SuperNovaSS]

Thanks again for the detailed replies Dan.


Jason

[strictlypersonl]

The original FIA's intake had two water outlets pointing forward. There was a cast connector with an outlet on the left side, pointing toward the radiator. No thermostat, but probably a restrictor somewhere. I've seen some pictures showing an additional bracket on the connector that held a fuel distributor (1 in, 4 out). Our "Number 142" had a fabricated part rather than a cast one, but the layout is similar.