Smiths or SW

[PaulProe]

Many posts and references imply that the British built Smiths gauges were supplied on the original cars.

Wyss' book Shelby Wildlife says Stewart Warner was used after November, 63 - they were having multiple issues with the British electrical system

Reviewing csxinfo.net and photos I've obtained, it looks like they were predominately Stewart Warner. Yet the supposed replicas by Autometer copied the Smiths, not the Stewart Warner.

Was this a faux pa on their part, maybe not wanting to copy a competitors gauge or any other reasons?

If you were truly trying to replicate a 3000 series car, would plain old SW gauges be the better choice? Haven't seen much discussion on the gauges. We've analyzed everything else to the nth degree - or did I miss something

Paul

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

Stewart Warner was used after November, 63 -

That refers to CSX2000 cars, not 3000

Originally Posted by PaulProe

If you were truly trying to replicate a 3000 series car...

...you would use Smith gauges.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

Many posts and references imply that the British built Smiths gauges were supplied on the original cars.

Wyss' book Shelby Wildlife says Stewart Warner was used after November, 63 - they were having multiple issues with the British electrical system

Reviewing csxinfo.net and photos I've obtained, it looks like they were predominately Stewart Warner. Yet the supposed replicas by Autometer copied the Smiths, not the Stewart Warner.

Was this a faux pa on their part, maybe not wanting to copy a competitors gauge or any other reasons?

If you were truly trying to replicate a 3000 series car, would plain old SW gauges be the better choice? Haven't seen much discussion on the gauges. We've analyzed everything else to the nth degree - or did I miss something

Paul

CSX2201 through CSX2589 street cars used Stewart Warner gauges with American wiring harnesses produced by one of Ford's suppliers. Cobras before and 427 Cobras after used Smiths gauges and British wiring. Works race cars usually had totally custom wiring of the day from aircraft materials.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

Wyss' book Shelby Wildlife says Stewart Warner was used after November, 63 - they were having multiple issues with the British electrical system
Paul

IMO that is not a book to use for reference material.

+1 for Dan's answer

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

IMO that is not a book to use for reference material.

But the author gets much of his info here!?!?! Agreed, twenty five years of misinformation repeated so often that it becomes "fact" (Carroll Shelby Export, etc.)

[PaulProe]

OK, but if you notice looking at the dash pictures of the 3000 series cars on CSXInfo.net, Stewart Warner is very predominate. Not just singe gauges (ie, replacement) but the entire set on the car.

? ? ?

Paul

ps: regarding reference sources, which book is considered most factual?

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

OK, but if you notice looking at the dash pictures of the 3000 series cars on CSXInfo.net, Stewart Warner is very predominate. Not just singe gauges (ie, replacement) but the entire set on the car.

Which CSX number?

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

OK, but if you notice looking at the dash pictures of the 3000 series cars on CSXInfo.net, Stewart Warner is very predominate. Not just singe gauges (ie, replacement) but the entire set on the car.

? ? ?

Paul

ps: regarding reference sources, which book is considered most factual?

Paul,

Can you list the CSX's of the pictures you are referring to? They may be listed in error. All original 3000 series cars were Smith gauges. Stewart Warner used in late 2000 series as described in previous post.

Perhaps you were looking at current generation cars.

To answer your second question, it's the SAAC World Registry.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

OK, but if you notice looking at the dash pictures of the 3000 series cars on CSXInfo.net, Stewart Warner is very predominate. Not just singe gauges (ie, replacement) but the entire set on the car.

? ? ?

Paul

ps: regarding reference sources, which book is considered most factual?

Bear in mind that all but a small percentage of 427 Cobras have not had a hard existence, never been raced, never wrecked, never customized, never been through a used car lot's clean up shop, and never "restored". Most have most definitely been messed with one way or another. That makes most of them poor examples of "originality". (Most Cobras likewise.) The low mile original in most every way cars rarely get out anywhere anybody can photograph them causually.

I have purchased the most interesting (to me) books printed in the last four decades dealing with Cobras and 427 Cobras and most do not have much information to gain for all but big details.

427 Cobras have lots of suttle production changes over time just as Cobras did. Comparing cars made in different batches will just confuse issues. To get a good idea of how a batch was made you might have to examine several cars and see what has been owner changed and what has not.

[PANAVIA]

Paul, I would go out and see several cars ( CSX's ) and take pictures and see what time period you want to emulate.

For me, it was the post production AC car which was a 427 chassis with a 289 in it as sold to UK buyers after the Shelby contract ended.

so in clarity , are you trying to build / emulate a 289 slabside, FIA, or 427 car >?

Steve

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

For me, it was the post production AC car which was a 427 chassis with a 289 in it as sold to UK buyers after the Shelby contract ended.

Steve

Steve,
Just an FYI, AC 289 Sports were in production and some delivered to buyers before all coil spring chassis were invoiced to SAI. They were produced in both LHD and RHD and also sold outside of the UK.

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by computerworks

That refers to CSX2000 cars...

Anyone know if any of the 289 street dashes had the larger 2 5/8 gauges in the center, or just the 2 1/16 size?

Were the 289's speedo and tach 3 5/8 or 3 3/8 diameter?




____________

[Dan Case]

All the small street stock SW instruments are 2-1/16. I never measured a tachometer or speedometer.

[PDUB]

Thanks Dan!



________________

[PANAVIA]

Thank you for the info on the 289 sports, -- I will have to go research that line of cars further.

on the 2"1/16th vs 2 5/8" -- The key word there being Street -- , for me personally I always thought the SW instruments looked like tractor gauges anyway.

If the cobra ( or AC 289 sports ) had been produced into 1970's one wonders what the eventual dashes ( gauges ) and bumpers would have looked like, --you can use the Etype and the corvette for reference -- maybe it was a good thing to stop when they did.

I was thinking of a Black on black smiths setup with the GT40 fonts on a dark green leather dash, in a brushed aluminum car. --

Steve

Steve

[marcocsx3121]

Trust me, CSX 3121 had Smiths gauges.

[PaulProe]

I got off my iPad and went to a computer with a higher resolution. I'll retract my statement about the high percentage. Not all are distinguishable but comparing like images many are truly Smiths gauges, with one exception.

Take a look at the dash pictures of CSX3159. All smaller gauges are clearly marked SW

Paul

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

Take a look at the dash pictures of CSX3159. All smaller gauges are clearly marked SW

Paul

I'd describe that as a highly modified gauge cluster. Perhaps from its drag racing days. Fuel gauge is still a Smiths.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by PaulProe

Take a look at the dash pictures of CSX3159. All smaller gauges are clearly marked SW

That's the Motion King Cobra...by 1972, there was not much of anything original in that car.

Not a good sample.

[GWL]

Back in 4-2009, I did some research and came up with the following results.

1. This is from the book, Original AC Ace & Cobra by Rinsey Mills, 1990
2. From my conversation with Chuck Gutky of Cobra Restorations
and others.

CSX2000 to 2200 - Smith Gauges
Large gauges – 4” (100mm)
Small gauges – 2 – 1/16” (52mm)

From 2201 onto 427 cars - Stewart Warner
Large gauges – 3 – ½”
Small gauges – 2 – 1/8”

427 Cars – Smith gauges
Large gauges 4” (100mm)
Small gauges – 2 – 1/16” (52mm)

FIA Cars – fitted with Stewart Warner gauges at 2 – 5/8” for oil pressure and oil temperature and a 2 – 1/16” Ammeter-I do not know about the large gauge or gauges

The first one or two cars from AC possibly came with 5" gauges. Quote from Rinsey Mills book: “Apart from the first one or two cars which used 2.6 Ace 5” main instruments, both the speedometer and rev counter were of 4” diameter.”

What also makes it a bit confusing is the fact that you could change to what ever gauges you wanted after you got the car but I also think, for some items, you could order what you wanted. I remember reading that there are different tails lights in the same series because you could order it that way. Two separate lights vs one.

The clock, from Rinsey Mills:"The lower gauge was an electric clock, which was normally by Smiths but a number of the cars with Stewart Warner equipment used a totally inappropriate clock form the 1962 Ford Galaxie"

I'm going to guess that the cars with Stewart Warner gauges came into the US without any gauges at all and were finished here with the American SW gauges. With no SW clocks they found some from Ford in the '62 Galaxie style.

It will be interesting to see what the new Rinsey Mills book has to say about the cars. It has been put off for a while now. It is too bad that more original information is not out there as some of the original guys that put these cars together are still living.