Toploader shift rods

[strictlypersonl]

While the lines of the transmission and differential should be close to parallel, they shouldn't be in line. The latter configuration keeps the needle bearings from properly rotating in their cups and will result premature Brinell failure.

[rsk289]

OK - now the engine is in, and I have checked the angles. The toploader clearly sits a little differently in the frame than the T10 would have. If I have no engine mount packing but pack the trans mount with a 1/2" spacer, this will give engine/trans tilted down at 1.5°, propshaft at 4°, and differential flange (fixed position) at 3°. I'm happy with this given the constraints of the system. The surgery I performed on the t/l rods means I have good clearance at the crossmember and don't have to notch the aluminium floor.

[MAStuart]

RSK289 I have a few comments and questions. Some of your answers might help others, myself. and you.

1 Engine and trans angle should equal pinion angle. The angle should be going the same direction (they should be parallel to one another). That would you have to do to get the angles the same. Raise the trans more or lower it?

2 Did they ever put Top loaders in leaf spring cars from the factory?

3 If they did install some top loader trans from the factory what shifter tower and what linkage did they use. (What model car was it taken from?)

4 I think you said that when the Tbird rubber was installed it was about level with the top of the frame rail. This means the rubber mount is about 1 inch thick and the plate that it wraps around is about 1 inch down from the top of the frame rail. Is this correct?


Mark

[MAStuart]

RSK289 is any chance that you could post some pictures of your trans mount and cross member and also your engine mount ( the brackets that are welded to your frame that the rubber mounts bolt to.)

The reason I am asking is because I am scratch building a Daytona coupe. The coupe the engine was lowered 1 inch so my engine mount brackets should look shorter than yours. I think the plans that I am using has some problems. I think my engine mount brackets are right but my trans mount bracket is in the roadster position and not lowered as would be required to get the engine and trans to the right angle. IF this is correct I will have to dent the cross member at the transmission for clearance of the shift linkage and the big angled support fin on the bottom of a t10 trans. If I raise the engine at the front mounts 1 inch my drive line angle is correct and the linkage will clear the trans cross tube.

Mark

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

RSK289 I have a few comments and questions. Some of your answers might help others, myself. and you.

1 Engine and trans angle should equal pinion angle. The angle should be going the same direction (they should be parallel to one another). That would you have to do to get the angles the same. Raise the trans more or lower it?

2 Did they ever put Top loaders in leaf spring cars from the factory?

3 If they did install some top loader trans from the factory what shifter tower and what linkage did they use. (What model car was it taken from?)

4 I think you said that when the Tbird rubber was installed it was about level with the top of the frame rail. This means the rubber mount is about 1 inch thick and the plate that it wraps around is about 1 inch down from the top of the frame rail. Is this correct?


Mark

Hi Mark -

From the research I've done over the past few years, I think parallel is an ideal situation - and give or take 1.5° should be OK in an IRS car with a fixed diff position. My previous build, a Hawk 289, had around 2° difference (pinion 4°, crankshaft 2°) and suffered no ill effects. To get true parallel, I would need to drop the crank line down further which is not practical.
Toploaders were never (to my knowledge) installed by the factory. I think all 289s used the T10. This answers your third point too.
Regards to the T'bird mount - yes, it is all as you describe.
Other, more knowledgeable members of the forum than I have confirmed that in MkII cars (and possibly later) the engine/trans were level, with the propshaft inclined downwards at 3° to the diff. It seems even AC struggled to get it right.

[Rick Parker]

Next Time:

[LMH]

Mark, are using plans from Cal Cobra's for your coupe?
Larry

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

Next Time:

Yes, that would be great - but how much??

Interesting to note the shift rods are in a completely different configuration, clearing the crossmember easily.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Originally Posted by rsk289

I had an idea that the side rod arrangement on the T10 is different from the toploader. Are they the same?
Certainly at present the tail of the toploader is sitting quite low with ref to the diff flange. I haven't got a motor on the front of it so can't tell until that's in.
The top of the 'chocolate block' rubber mount is roughly level with the top of the crossmember. As far as I can see that is correct, unless someone can tell me I've got it wrong. I may need some spacing anyway to help with driveline angles, but I think the T10/toploader difference is in the side rod arrangement.

I tried a T-10 shifter body with my toploader and I could not get it to work properly. Had two gears and reverse okay but just could not get it to workall the way. I eventually bought a Tiger shifter body and rods and they worked perfectly. The Ford engineers did not make these two compatible.

[Rick Parker]

Roger: I have seen some aluminum plates about 1/2" thick that bolted to the trans to which the shifter control box bolted to, thus spacing the shifter to the left 1/2". Would this help you? Remember Top loaders did NOT come in small blocks.

I might addd, the photo above of my installation of the T10 does not have the correct tailhousing, but I bought the transmission for $175.00 at the time, and I fabricated the aluminum bracket to which the shifter is bolted to. I used period pictures to get the installation height correct and shift rods in correct orientation. This works perfect.


This might help:

http://http://www.toploaderheaven.co...ter_plates.htm

[rsk289]

Thanks for the suggestion, Rick, but the shifter lever is in the correct place - the only issue has been height, as the toploader sits too low at the back with the tailshaft pretty much resting on the crossmember and being too low to give the correct relationship with the diff flange.
I reckon the toploader mount flange is at a different height from that in a T10. I have the correct T10 mount on the chassis and I need to space this up by around 3/4". I know Nick sells a spacer for toploaders that lifts by about the same amount, so I'm not the first to find this. An ally block spacer mounted on top of the rubber, with longer bolts through the metal strap and spacer, should sort my problem OK. If not I'll be back on here quick!

[Rick Parker]

Best of luck........

[MAStuart]

RSK289 does your top loader have the early trans mounting pattern for the bell housing? OR a duel pattern wide and narrow pattern?

Mark

[rsk289]

Narrow, 4 bolts only. It's an HEH-E

[MAStuart]

rsk289 and everyone else thanks for replying to his thread. Larry yes I am using his plans.

Back to rsk289 linkage. I did a google images search for 289 cobra restoration and came up with this 1965 Shelby AC Cobra 289 Full Restoration
It has a top loader but I don't know if it is original to the car. Do we know for a fact that no leaf sprung cars came top loader trans? Has Dan chimed in on this one?

Mark

[MAStuart]

I looked at the picture in the link some more and it looks like it is using a scatter shield and a wide bolt pattern trans. I assume they used 6 bolt block on some of the later leaf spring cars. If you search ebay for top loader trans you will see that there is a wide verity of tail housing that were used on these trans. It looks like that with the right combination of parts that it will bolt in and have the right driveline angle and the linkage should clear without modifying anything. But what is the right combination of parts. That is the question.

Mark

[rsk289]

I'm pretty certain toploaders were never fitted to original cars - someone else will confirm this. No 289s were built with 6-bolt blocks apart from a very small batch of automatics - all manual cars had the 5-bolt block.
For using toploaders in 289s, it is not easy to find the right combination of parts. David Kee advertises a special tailshaft housing which works well, but I have been unable to contact him to place an order. Stock Sunbeam Tiger parts will work well, and I'm sure there are other parts that will work.

[Dominik]

Am I wrong in suggesting to turn the reverse lever up to clear the x-member and move the gear lever opposite to engage reverse?

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by rsk289

....For using toploaders in 289s, it is not easy to find the right combination of parts. David Kee advertises a special tailshaft housing which works well, but I have been unable to contact him to place an order. Stock Sunbeam Tiger parts will work well, and I'm sure there are other parts that will work.

rsk, I want to use a Toploader in a 289 as well. Finding information on which is the correct tailhousing is difficult. Can you tell me which tailhousing you are using?
Cheers,
Glen

[rsk289]

I am using a complete Sunbeam Tiger HEH-E toploader with the correct 5-bolt bellhousing.
Most of the 'original' Cobras racing in Europe use toploaders, but I think these have the David Kee 'Cobra' tailshaft. I haven't been able to buy one of these.