Toploader shift rods

[rsk289]

I've now fitted Nick's excellent correct trans mount bracket, for the T'bird rubber block. As was the case with the Mustang-style mount, the rear shift rod and lever foul the chassis crossmember by getting on for 1". So I can make up a plate to raise the tailshaft by this amount - but, has anyone tried shortening the shifter lever that the rod is connected to? Obviously shortening it will mean it doesn't move the rod quite as far as before, but would this be an issue? I'd prefer to retain the correct driveline angles, but if shortening the lever means it won't go into gear then the answer's obvious.
Just wondered if anyone has experience of trying this!
Roger

[mickmate]

Shortening the lever will push it further in to gear but make it a little harder to do so.

[DanEC]

Is just one shifter rod hitting the crossmemeber - or all three of them?

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Is just one shifter rod hitting the crossmemeber - or all three of them?

The lowest by a long way is the Reverse shift rod, which tips down at quite an angle over the crossmember. This is the one that calls for any spacer to be 1" thick - the 3/4 rod may foul the xmember but by much less and would work with a thinner trans mount spacer. Can't really tell unless I remove the reverse rod and retry.
The 1/2 rod is completely clear.
Maybe experiment by redrilling the reverse lever plate, repositioning the reverse rod, and seeing if it still works...
It's a Tiger toploader, btw

[FatBoy]

Roger,

If you drilled and tapped a new hole for the top bolt in the shifter mounting plate, would that allow you to rotate the shifter enough to clear the cross-member? It would bring the handle back slightly, but that may or may not be a problem.

Paul

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by FatBoy

Roger,

If you drilled and tapped a new hole for the top bolt in the shifter mounting plate, would that allow you to rotate the shifter enough to clear the cross-member? It would bring the handle back slightly, but that may or may not be a problem.

Paul

Wouldn't do it, Paul - firstly that would alter all the required shifter rod lengths, and it would need to move a very long way.
Best options are
1 spacer under trans mount
2 shorten the vertical lever working the reverse rod
3 relieve x-member and weld in fillet, easily reversible if I ever win the lottery and find a decent T10
Every Kirkham with a toploader will have the same issue, presuming the crossmember is in the same place.* So the spacer option clearly works, it'd just be neater to avoid it if poss, and better for the driveline angles. I'm aiming for 3-4 deg but have yet to measure the diff flange angle.

*and assuming it has a Tiger toploader - this is the price you pay for getting the shift lever in the correct place!

[DanEC]

I believe I re-drilled one of the shifter mount holes on my bracket as suggested to get a little better alignment on my ERA but sounds like you would need to rotate it quite a bit. Have you trial fit your tunnel to see where the shifter falls? Maybe you can re-drill the mount plate and shift the entire shifter body a little higher and leave the transmission where it is. Mine really sits a little too low since they build the transmission tunnels a little taller now on many cars to adapt all of the 5 and 6 speed transmission options with internal, top sitting shifters.

If that isn't feasible then re-drilling the shifter reverse lever may be your best option since a little additional effort and throw in going into reverse would probably not be a big issue. One thing that may be a problem though is the longer throw of the shift arm to engage reverse. Since it's on the outside of the pattern you may run into interference with the trim ring.

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I believe I re-drilled one of the shifter mount holes on my bracket as suggested to get a little better alignment on my ERA but sounds like you would need to rotate it quite a bit. Have you trial fit your tunnel to see where the shifter falls? Maybe you can re-drill the mount plate and shift the entire shifter body a little higher and leave the transmission where it is. Mine really sits a little too low since they build the transmission tunnels a little taller now on many cars to adapt all of the 5 and 6 speed transmission options with internal, top sitting shifters.

If that isn't feasible then re-drilling the shifter reverse lever may be your best option since a little additional effort and throw in going into reverse would probably not be a big issue. One thing that may be a problem though is the longer throw of the shift arm to engage reverse. Since it's on the outside of the pattern you may run into interference with the trim ring.

Just done some fag-packet measurements for this, and it could be a runner. The ally tunnel is 8" tall (above floor level) at the point where the shifter sits (should be same as original car). The top of the shifter assembly sits 7" above floor height. Raising the entire shifter bracket 1" would bring this level with the base of the rubber gaiter, which would actually improve the risk of the shift lever hitting the chrome trim ring. So - I need to get everything back in the car and check measurements, then try clamping the shifter bracket upwards 1" and checking gear selection is OK. If OK, I'll need to weld an extension on the shifter bracket to take two new lower holes, and redrill the top hole. IF this works, it should solve any problems.
Diff flange driveline angle is 3.7°, so if the trans ends up at 3-4° to match I'll be happy! Fingers crossed - thanks Dan!

[rsk289]

Think I've cracked it.
Moving the whole shifter mounting upwards wouldn't do it, as the 3/4 rod sits underneath the operating cams for 1/2 and reverse on the side of the box. I'd have to refabricate a very complex rod shape for this still to work.
So - back to plan A: redrill the hole for the reverse rod higher up on shift lever in the shifter mechanism.
No chance! These levers are either hardened steel or surface hardened. HSS drills won't touch it, barely scratched the surface.
The answer was to cut through the arm with an angle grinder, then reweld it back together with the hole in the right place. This I did, then cut and rewelded the reverse rod to suit. I did the same with the 3/4 arm and rod, to bring it closer to the casing (it was fouling the floor pan) and slightly higher.
The first pic shows my initial problem: The cross member would sit exactly where the heavily-angled rod is, level with the trans mount casting base seen ahead of this. Hence the need to gain an inch.
The second pic shows the end result, with reverse and 3/4 modified rods and arms.
The third pic gives a few from above, which shows the mod to the reverse rod more clearly.

I've checked operation and all gears engage correctly, possibly a little easier than before as the operating angles of the rods have improved. Shift movement doesn't seem to have increased notably, but we'll see when the trans cover goes on.
So - Sunbeam Tiger toploaders will fit with original-type trans mount with a little shifter rod surgery!
Roger

[LMH]

Nice job!
Larry

[DanEC]

I agree - nice job. Looks like that reverse lever is no shorter than the 3/4 lever so I wouldn't think the effort would be any higher than the forward gears. I have a Hurst unit in my car and I'm not familiar with Ford shifter mechanisms - how does that work with the slotted rods?

[rsk289]

Thanks guys - the effort's actually slightly easier as the rods and levers are now working at 90°, which is more efficient.
The rods don't slide - the slot is simply for adjustment, there's a nut on the back of the pivot which you can't see which holds it tight in the slot. I was careful to weld with the adjustment in the centre of the slot just in case.
There's a small hole at the top of the levers, just under the shifter pivot, visible in the first two pics. This goes right through everything - put a 3/16" drill bit right through all the arms, set the side levers in neutral, tighten the slot nuts just mentioned and the shifter mechanism is adjusted correctly.
These things are so simple, it's unbelievable!

[LightNFast]

Congrats on your modification.

I believe the only difference between the Tiger and Galaxie is the tail housing length. You can see from the photo the original T10 configuration has the 3-4 lever just above the frame member - The Toploader should be nearly identical.

It sure sounds like the drivetrain isn't sitting correctly in the chassis.

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by LightNFast

Congrats on your modification.

I believe the only difference between the Tiger and Galaxie is the tail housing length. You can see from the photo the original T10 configuration has the 3-4 lever just above the frame member - The Toploader should be nearly identical.

It sure sounds like the drivetrain isn't sitting correctly in the chassis.

I had an idea that the side rod arrangement on the T10 is different from the toploader. Are they the same?
Certainly at present the tail of the toploader is sitting quite low with ref to the diff flange. I haven't got a motor on the front of it so can't tell until that's in.
The top of the 'chocolate block' rubber mount is roughly level with the top of the crossmember. As far as I can see that is correct, unless someone can tell me I've got it wrong. I may need some spacing anyway to help with driveline angles, but I think the T10/toploader difference is in the side rod arrangement.

[LightNFast]

Here's one for you with a Toploader....

[rsk289]

Originally Posted by LightNFast

Here's one for you with a Toploader....

Thanks - yes, he's had to cut the floor area as the 3/4 rod sticks out too far sideways, I preferred to bring the rod in rather than have a step in the tunnel.
I'd be interested to know what's happening with the vertical dimensions, though.
Can anyone with a toploader tell me where the underside of the mounting flange on the t/l sits in relation to the crossmember under the linkage area? Level, or above - is a spacer used?

[LightNFast]

Originally Posted by rsk289

Certainly at present the tail of the toploader is sitting quite low with ref to the diff flange. I haven't got a motor on the front of it so can't tell until that's in.

Put the grinder down and step away from the car - I highly recommend you focus your efforts elsewhere until you have the engine and trans in place.

[rsk289]

You are quite right - the next step is motor in and bolted up to check driveline angles.

[blue sky]

Roger, Check on putting spacers of the same thickness above the 4 bolts of the motor mount to block as you need between the trans mount and trans so that you raise it level. I had to raise a SBF with T-10 on a Mk3 car 1/2" to give better clearance for the shifter rods and had plenty of clearance above the air filter and header tank.
AJ

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by rsk289

The rods don't slide - the slot is simply for adjustment, there's a nut on the back of the pivot which you can't see which holds it tight in the slot.

Thanks - the washer and cotter pin threw me, looked like a free, sliding connection. I was thinking - how does that work? Learned something about Ford shifters today.