Voltage regulator on 289 LUCAS or AUTOLITE

[ALF]

Next question
Sorry

Based on the pictures I fund about the 289 cars the voltage regulator got changed from LUCAS to AUTOLITE.
I there any date (CSX number) related to this change?

[ALF]

It seems to me Jeff used on his 2375 a blue Autolite regulator (mounted on top of the passenger foot box).

As his thread is for me a great source of information and he’s using correct parts my assumption is that the change was done prior 2375.

[LMH]

CSX2201 is the change to Ford wiring harness and SW gauges.
Larry

[ALF]

Your answer is somehow rolling up my project..

I was looking forward to order a wiring harness from AUTO-Sparks with Braided cables based on the old specification/color code.
As I’ll use SW instruments and you’re mentioning now that they got used with the AUTOLITE Regulator (Alternator) and the FORD WIRING HARNESS I’m now a little bit lost.

Do you know a source for such (correct with no new connectors) wiring harness and did they still use the Lucas DB10 and other parts used with the “older” wiring harness?

[LMH]

The harness was a conglomeration of Autolite and Lucas. The DB10 relay was used on the Autolite harness as well as a few other Lucas bits. I do know source for what is advertised as a correctly reproduced harness but it's a link saved on my home computer. I can post it later when I get home. I don't have personal experience with their product though.
Be prepared... its expensive!
Larry

[rsk289]

Well, the later wiring diagram is labelled as 'Lucas' and uses English colour coding. But it seems to show an Autolite alternator and VR. Not sure I've ever seen a Lucas alternator on a car, but just because I haven't doesn't mean anything, of course.



BTW, the alternator/VR connections on this diagram are incorrect.

Roger

[Mongoose930]

This schematic above looks pretty similar to the 427 schematic and I know that British Wiring makes a very authentic looking harness for the 427. They also have a lot of great wiring components and connectors to help you with the project. I have been very happy with there products and service.

Main Wiring Harness AC Cobra 427

[LMH]

As with anything Cobra, things are changed throughout the manufacture time. Dan pointed out to me, that the cars most like each other are the later/last leaf spring cars. So while 2201 is the most drastic change in the series, there are differences as the later cars were made.
Larry

[LMH]

Search around here and you'll find a harness set for "MKII 289 Cobra".
Wiring Harnesses - Narragansett Reproductions - Wiring Harnesses and car restoration supplies
Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by ALF

Next question
Sorry

Based on the pictures I fund about the 289 cars the voltage regulator got changed from LUCAS to AUTOLITE.
I there any date (CSX number) related to this change?

CSX2000 through CSX2200 had wiring design by AC Cars and made with British materials except early cars did change from Lucas voltage regulators to Ford ones at the same time early cars changed from Lucas generators to Ford ones. CSX2201 started the new specification and used Ford alternators. CSX2201 and later got main wiring harnesses (several different sections) designed by Ford and manufactured with American materials by one or more Ford suppliers. The American harnesses had to be shipped to AC Cars for installation. Most of the wiring in CSX2201 and up street cars was American but some ancillaries, specifically all the lights, had to have American made jumpers to connect American wiring to British looms that AC Cars used on the lamps. The German turn signal switch had to have its loom reterminated to plug into the Ford supplied main dash loom section.

Electrical ancillaries for CSX2201 and up street cars were all Ford or in some cases Cobra unique American made parts except the fore mentioned lamps, the fan motor in front of the radiator, wiper drive, tail lamp relay, turn signal “flasher”, heater/demister fan motor, turn signal indicator lamps, turn signal switch, horn switch, thermostatic fan switch, horns, and wiper switch if I counted them all up correctly just now. The charging system was all Ford, some of it very rare even in 1965. Some parts used in new car production were obsolete by the time the cars were completed and sold and not listed in the 1965 Shelby parts book.

British Wiring:

Long integral pigtails in plastic tube protective sheaths for each head lamp. (Cobra only)

Long integral pigtails in plastic tube protective sheaths for each front turn/park lamp. (Cobra only)

Cloth wrapped single wire (white w/blue dashed spiral trace) power source for turn signal switch. (Cobra only, I suspect that AC Cars provided this assembly.)

American Wiring:

The three largest Ford wire looms for a CSX2201 and later street cars have been commercially reproduced by more than one source. A few of the jumper looms were reproduced after I wanted some for CSX2551 and provided drawings. Ford supplied looms wise there were:

Under dash, with fuse block and instrument wiring. (XB-954435 Cobra only)

Engine bay, with connections for front light looms. (XB-954434 Cobra only)

Fire wall rearward, with connections for tag and tail lamp looms. (XB-954431 Cobra only)

Two each, one for each horn, horn power wires with male Lucas plug on one end and male Ford plug with same maker’s marks as other Cobra-Ford pieces on the other, connects Ford wiring to Lucas connections inside horn assemblies. (Cobra only)

Two each, one for each horn, horn ground wires with male Lucas plug on one end and female Ford ¼ inch ring terminal on the other, connects Lucas connections inside horn assemblies to the car chassis via one of the horn fixing bolts. (Cobra only)

One for the tag lamp, single Ford male plug for power and Ford ring terminal for grounding at the chassis end and two solder on male Lucas plugs inside the Lucas 467 tag lamp assembly. (Cobra only)

Two each to connect the Ford engine bay harness to the Lucas head lamp wiring. (Cobra only)

Two each short looms to connect the Ford chassis loom to the tail lamps. (modified Ford ACD-66603, Cobra only)

A left front marker/turn signal lamp jumper Ford to Lucas wiring. (Cobra only)

A right front marker/turn signal lamp jumper Ford to Lucas wiring. (Cobra only)

Bonding (ground wire) between tachometer and speedometer mounting clamps. (Cobra only)

Lucas windshield wiper switch to Ford harness #1, three wire gang. (Cobra only)

Lucas windshield wiper switch to Ford harness #2, three wire gang. (Cobra only)

Branched heater circuit, one path has minimal resistance and one path has about 2 ohm more resistance (on my old meter I get 2 ohm anyway). The fast motor speed power runs through the low resistance path and the slow motor speed power runs through the specific resistance wire path. The Delaney-Gallay made heater assembly blower motor has a power wire and a ground wire. These wires plug into the branched heater circuit loom assembly. The ground wire in the loom attaches to the same chassis point behind the dash fascia as the main instrument panel loom with a pan head chrome plated slotted sheet metal screw. (Cobra only)

Radiator cooling fan loom. (Cobra only)

Tachometer sender to tachometer loom. (Cobra only)

Positive battery cable. C4DF-14300-A FOMOCO (Ford production part.)

Negative battery cable. C2OF-14301-C SX FOMOCO (Ford production part.)

Starter cable. (looks like a Ford production part but so far I have not found one with the same dimensions)

Windshield washer pump extension wire assembly, custom made to suit with different cars using different wiring and crimp on terminals. (Cobra only)

Engine/transmission ground (at transmission mount bracket) wire. Modified FDD-14303-A SX FOMOCO (Ford production part made by Essex Wire®, modified for Cobra use – large ring terminal hole enlarged enough for one of the transmission mount bolts to pass through)
Major Parts:
Alternator assembly, 1963 model year design created for a specific 427 Ford charging system option package. (limited Ford production part)


Voltage regulator (early was a limited Ford production part and late a common Ford part)


Windshield washer pump (Ford production part)


Windshield washer push button switch (Ford production part)

Windshield wiper drive power feed circuit breaker (Ford production part)

Alternator warning lamp (based on a 1963 Ford truck part) (Cobra only)

High headlight beam indicator (collection of Ford production parts from different years and models) (Cobra only as an assembly)

Ignition switch assembly (Ford production parts)

Heater fan two speed switch (based on a Ford production part) (Cobra only)

Headlamp switch (Ford production part)

Tail lamp switch (Ford production part)

Oil and water temperature sender (made by Stewart Warner, might be Cobra only, I don’t remember anymore)

Thermal switch for radiator fan. Second of two revisions of Otter® M70 bi-metal switch. So far no application for this exact switch other than Cobras has been found.

Tachometer (made by SW under a Ford experimental engineering number)
(Cobra only)

Tachometer sender (made by SW under a Ford experimental engineering number)
(Cobra only)

Clock (based on a 1962 Galaxie design but with different steel and finish on front bezel) (Cobra only)

Starter solenoid (Ford production part – with production defect logo)

Horn relay (Ford production part)

Oil pressure sender (Stewart Warner)

Headlight dimmer switch (Ford production part)

Voltage regulators are something that very often gets changed on cars. Finding Cobras with the voltage regulator that it left the factory with or even just probably (doesn’t show any signs of ever being removed) isn’t frequent. I believe just two models were sent to AC Cars for installation on new cars being created. FoMoCo® C3XF-10316-C marked ones up into at least the high CSX23xx range and FoMoCo® C4TF-10316-D marked ones by at least the early CSX24xx range. There are not enough totally unrestored cars to review to get much finer timing than that.

Dan

[rsk289]

That is a full and comprehensive list from Dan, as you might expect.
The only thing I would add is that if dealing with a European, or more specifically UK car (e.g. COB----) you will find Lucas switchgear and warning lamps etc., which are generic to a few British cars of the time, mostly more upmarket such as Jaguar/Rover. For example, whilst the VW indicator switch remained, the wiper switch was Jaguar/Rover, the rheostats for panel lights/heater blower were generic Lucas as was the lightswitch. The main beam warning light was an inset jewel lamp in the tachometer face, and the headlamp dipswitch was from a Rover 2000 P6. The DB10 was of course used in a large number of British cars, mostly earlier than the Cobra which was very late to use this part. UK construction law required all cars to have a separate amber indicator front and rear after September 1965, but most other makers had already made the change.

[ALF]

Originally Posted by LMH

Search around here and you'll find a harness set for "MKII 289 Cobra".
Wiring Harnesses - Narragansett Reproductions - Wiring Harnesses and car restoration supplies
Larry

Hi Larry
Many thanks for this link
From a price point of view the harness from Auto-Sparks looks more interesting to me.
http://www.autosparks.co.uk/product

[ALF]

Hi Dan
MANY THANKS for this great list.

On my 289 (with cut back doors) I’ve a street version dash and SW instruments. Based on this I’ll investigate for the Ford/Autolite related parts and not focus on the Lucas items. (on the items which got changed after CSX2201)

Could you tell me if only the FIA cars had the wiring harness on the interior passing below the door or was this on all race cars?
As I will not reinstall the carpet on my car I’m still looking around to find the best matching setup/ installation.

Alf

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by ALF

Hi Dan
MANY THANKS for this great list.

On my 289 (with cut back doors) I’ve a street version dash and SW instruments. Based on this I’ll investigate for the Ford/Autolite related parts and not focus on the Lucas items. (on the items which got changed after CSX2201)

Could you tell me if only the FIA cars had the wiring harness on the interior passing below the door or was this on all race cars?
As I will not reinstall the carpet on my car I’m still looking around to find the best matching setup/ installation.

Alf

CSX2201 and later street cars: The wiring for the rear of the chassis exits the fire wall, runs down the driver’s side foot box at an angle adjacent to the transmission and the back along the main frame rail.

All race cars; that is a big broad subject. When CSX2002 was first raced by SAI is was very nearly a stock Cobra except for the roll bar, lack of mufflers, ignition system, and spark plugs. Every SAI race and racer from them on morphed to a more purpose built racer than sports car going racing on the weekend. Early team cars looks like they have stock electrical systems with subsystems added like electric fuel pumps or night driving lights for example. By early 1964 when the cut back door racers were being finished racers had few pure street ancillary features anymore. The cut back door race cars got custom wiring, i.e. each car was individually wired depending on the variables at the time and the wishes of the people completing them. The custom wiring in these race cars did not always follow the same paths as street cars. I don’t know of any one car pictured anywhere from all angles at any time. Race car wise wiring changed as the cars changed race to race and in some cases season to season. Example: Cars raced in night time events would gain marker lights and in later pictures the lights would be removed. No race car exists now as it did day one so looking today won’t tell you what it was like new in 1964. Dave Friedman’s (spelling?) images in various period magazines, books, and the various websites now hosting collections are the best sources for 1964 time frame images. Even with all these resources today one would just have to put some wiring wherever they wanted that seemed logical as in: race car, 1964, where should I run the wiring to keep it as safe as possible from all the bad things that happen while racing and or make it easy to repair if something does happen.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by ALF

Hi Larry
Many thanks for this link
From a price point of view the harness from Auto-Sparks looks more interesting to me.
http://www.autosparks.co.uk/product

Definitely from a price point. It all boils down to how accurate do you want to be. The Autolite harness bits are the hard ones to replicate. Molded ends are expensive and pieces like the three plugs that pass through the firewall make it high dollar. It took me months to find the correct alternator plug!
Of course, right after I found one, two showed up on eBay! ( I had to buy them too!)
Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by LMH

Definitely from a price point. It all boils down to how accurate do you want to be. The Autolite harness bits are the hard ones to replicate. Molded ends are expensive and pieces like the three plugs that pass through the firewall make it high dollar. It took me months to find the correct alternator plug!
Of course, right after I found one, two showed up on eBay! ( I had to buy them too!)
Larry

This thread is probably creating lots of confusion. I believe that Alf has the desire to work towards replicating the look of the cut back door car Ken Miles used for development of racing parts. That car started off like other cars of the time but changed a lot quickly and many features it had were unique to it real soon. It wasn’t really a “FIA car” or any other one rule book car. Sometimes it had to race in non-production classes because it was so unique. I don’t have any pictures of that car when it was first completed (before the metamorphosis in a much modified racer) that shows its wiring that I am aware of. It could take hours to just go look. This thread has mixed street, cut back door general, and the Ken Miles car. Part of the mix was just to give some detail on what type electrical system parts cars were getting in 1964. Late street car and late race car wiring to connect those devices are different subjects. Late race car wiring was not neat and pretty. It was crude and simple without all the group wired over-molds and neat spiral tape wraps and part number labels street cars had.

This is a blurry cut and paste alternator installation from a picture taken by the factory photographer of a freshly completed car. As an example the fancy Ford production alternator connector was not used. Instead wires were run individually with connectors installed on each individual wire. When I have said late race car wiring was custom I mean completely custom, nothing like street cars.



Bulk head wiring of the same team race car compared to a street car of the same time chassis number range. Just a handful of wires pulled through a hole in the wall.

[LMH]

Interesting Dan! I wonder why they didn't use the plug? It's actually safer with the metal tab holding it in place than using Spade clips.
Oh well... why ask why!
Larry

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by LMH

Interesting Dan! I wonder why they didn't use the plug? It's actually safer with the metal tab holding it in place than using Spade clips.
Oh well... why ask why!
Larry

You can’t tell in this race car alternator case but I suspect they used ring terminals. That could be another long hunt through photos session.

There is quite a bit in print, some written as it was being done and some in books by former SAI employees, on why some things were done the way they were but I have never seen anything specific about wiring other than using heavy duty aircraft wiring materials in the race cars. I would suspect that it had a lot to do with the practicalities of fabrication versus manufacturing. Retired now, I worked in manufacturing for 37+ years and how many one wanted of something usually dictated how it was made. Example: If there was a drawing for a part or tool and we just wanted just a few we usually made them in house with materials on hand or materials we could get quickly locally, with what machines and people we had. If we wanted maybe two dozen we got local job shops to quote, and if we wanted hundreds to millions we got potential contract suppliers to quote. I can speculate that if a small subgroup of fabricators are doing between only one car at a time or two cars the same the most practical way to custom wire a car was just grab material from stock and do it how they wanted. I have not studied wiring but I have studied Weber induction systems details for decades. My collection of information indicated that any given batch of cars (race car batches were very small) had identical induction system details day one but every other batch would have something different to lots of differences. SAI was building world beating race cars and they used what they learned in one batch to make changes on the next. I don’t believe there is a photo log of every racer being built showing all the wiring but I would be very surprised if more than three race cars were ever wired exactly alike.

[ALF]

Hi Dan

Many thanks for the picture.
As a non native English speaking persons I appreciate pictures as it leaves out misinterpretations.


I found the following cars on the internet showing what you stated CSX2557



Check the wiring of this beautiful car below the door


(hope it is OK to post this pictures)

[Dan Case]

Your welcome. The "Ken Miles" car was so unique (1964-65 and now) that pictures of other cut back door cars (1964-65 and now) will be misleading. The car now is not just like it was in old photos, at least some parts in use now are not the same as they were in 1965.