fivebolt bellhousing identification

[peterpjb]

i found this bellhousing, probably a 1963 289 fivebolt bellhousing

any ideas about the number and the "sheffield"-tag?

thanks a lot

[Dan Case]

Late summer 1963 casting. I don’t have my parts references handy but if it is for a small V8 it is for 260/289 Ford engines that were fitted with manual transmissions. Timing wise that is early in the 1964 model year.


SHEFFIELD is the town in Alabama where Henry Ford had a large hunting camp and where he put his aluminum die casting plant when the Tennessee Valley Authority put a dam and hydroelectric generation plant nearby and provided low cost power. The plant was sold in the maybe the late 1970s or early 980s.


Here's one link to Sheffield's past, you can find many more.


http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2013/01/post_89.html


Ford's aluminum casting plant made most Ford made aluminum die castings there for decades. I lived nearby and had friends that worked for Ford. My father was a metallurgical engineer and researcher working in Huntsville employed in the manned space program. The local professional engineering society chapters serving a variety of industrial and aerospace communities use to visit the Ford plant regularly.


Ford got out of the aluminum casting business in Sheffield but not before “recycling” untold numbers of Ford performance parts from the 1962-72 time frame. When Ford bailed out of “racing” circa 1971 it recalled inventories of aluminum performance parts. Yes, they also recycled obsolete castings of all kinds after most the cars they came on became ten or more years old but the performance part recycling was on an enormous scale. Dealers could turn in parts listed as obsolete for credit and Ford would destroy them. Thousands of aluminum rocker arm covers, intake manifolds, and cylinder heads from them the Total Performance® and Muscle Parts® programs were shipped to the Sheffield plant: Ford DOHC INDY type cylinder heads, Boss 429 cylinder heads, dress up aluminum rocker arm covers, and aluminum 4V intakes by the truck load. Circa 1976 I met a fellow selling C9OX 4V intakes for 289/302 engines with 351W 4V cylinder heads out of the trunk of his car for $16 each as many as you wanted. When I asked where they came from he said the Ford scrap bins. I didn’t believe him and then he told me Ford was paying mostly high school and college age people to unbox returned parts and toss them in the big bins that fork trucks would move to the furnance area for melt down. He indicated that most of the parts were of little interest, like what could you do with a DOHC INDY cylinder head or Boss 429 head? On the other hand, the C9OX FORD lettered intakes would bolt onto any 260/289/non-Boss 302 engine and there was enormous market for cheap intakes. Anyway, he said one of the unboxing crew tossed these intakes over the fence and went back after work to get them. He was selling them super cheap and the guy I met selling them for $16 each was making a very large percentage profit. I didn’t want a stolen intake manifold and ended up buying an Edelbrock intake at Pat Gray’s speed shop.


So where did the Cobra, INDY, and Boss aluminum go after remelting? Into Ford Pinto transmission cases one of the plant’s QC Inspectors told me.

[Dan Case]

I just checked, that is a manual transmission casting for 260/289 Ford five bolt engines for the 1963 and 1964 model years.

[peterpjb]

thanks a lot, Dan, that is exactly what I want to hear

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

thanks a lot, Dan, that is exactly what I want to hear

You are most welcome.


PS There is no way I would use one in any type DRIVEN Cobra original or otherwise. Forget badly damaging chassis when clutch, flywheel, or sometimes transmission components fail; driver and passenger legs are right beside the bell housing. You don't have to be racing to have a problem with five decade old (design, materials, and age) devices with mystery service lives. Everything will fail eventually and one spinning around with a saw like ring gear is not one to trifle with. One original car owner told me he had a failure driving along in city traffic at less than 50 mph.

I have the original from my black car stored for a someday trailered only restoration. Both my cars have steel scatter shields on them.

[CompClassics]

Looks like a August of 1963 casting date.

[peterpjb]

Dan, do I understand that right? for safety reasons you would recommend a cast iron bellhouse instead of an aluminum bellhouse?
My engine will be completely rebuilt with a perfectly balanced and new flywheel, also new clutch etc, T10 also rebuilt, I suppose the risc of parts flying around is not that high?

[CompClassics]

I believe Dan is emphasizing the dangers of the rotating mass (flywheel, clutch and pressure plate) and the proximity of it and the drivers and passengers legs. If something went wrong the possibility of personal injury may be more likely than if you used a scattershield or blow-proof type bellhousing, either cast steel or deep drawn steel.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

Dan, do I understand that right? for safety reasons you would recommend a cast iron bellhouse instead of an aluminum bellhouse?
My engine will be completely rebuilt with a perfectly balanced and new flywheel, also new clutch etc, T10 also rebuilt, I suppose the risc of parts flying around is not that high?

Not cast iron, high strength steel. Cast iron is too brittle to contain fast moving shrapnel; think of holes poked in iron blocks by connecting rods or other pieces of a failed engine.

Original COBRA lettered five and six bolt units are high strength steel castings and I have seen them complete contain a 9,000+ rpm failure inside of them.

There were also pressed steel aftermarket models but not all will fit an original car's chassis without modification. If one starts cutting, grinding, or heating and beating on one to make it fit they lose a lot of the strength and integrity you wanted one for in the first place.


Even brand new stuff can fail and there is always a small fraction of defects in all manufactured things.

[peterpjb]

thanks guys for that advice, any sources for those high strength steel five bolt bellhouses?

[Dan Case]

Be wary of any used safety bell housing (a.k.a. scatter shield) made by anybody in any design that has already contained a failure. You can tell if high speed heavy sharp objects have been bashing around inside. Example: The cast steel Cobra model for five bolt engines will often be distorted in one to several directions after a big component failure inside of them. Just because bits and pieces don't come flying out in an event doesn’t mean the unit didn’t get stretched one way or several.

I have personally not had any issues with original COBRA five bolt housings that have never had to contain a clutch/pressure plate/flywheel/transmission input failure. They have fit and aligned great with no need to shimming or adjusting position in any way. On the other hand, I have gotten ones that got “well used” after something inside failed and started a chain of failures and it was sort of stretched to one side a little to over an eighth inch. Example: In 2015 I had my local automotive street and race engine shop measure one with very obvious scars on its inside and it was quite distorted and in the end not usable; wall art.

[peterpjb]

this warning seems comprehensible to me in the first place,

but... I am involved in vintage and race cars for about 30 years especially alfa romeo and have never heard about such an issue before,
e.g. the giulietta SZ or TZ has also aluminum body and propshaft tunnel, with engine, belthouse and trans also out of alu, they are reving in the races up to 8.000 and 9.000, never heard about any failure of flywheel or clutch that caused damages, and many many of the other 50th and 60th racecars are driven with aluminum bellhouses, the majority even has no alternative between alu or steel

the only fear according to drivetrain-damages I know is about a detached propshaft, but that can be solved with a propshaft-cage

are there any documented destructions of an aluminum bellhouse and injured legs caused by a flywheel- or clutch- failure?

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

this warning seems comprehensible to me in the first place, ….
are there any documented destructions of an aluminum bellhouse and injured legs caused by a flywheel- or clutch- failure?

CSX2014 raced by Shelby's works damaged the driver (right foot) and the car crashed. Perhaps that early works failure prompted the development of the COBRA lettered safety models? There have been some street cars with failures in published stories but I won't go digging for chassis numbers. If the owners of those cars want the world to know bad things in their cars’ pasts I let them be the ones to publish it fresh. One “street” Cobra was severely damaged and over the years since 1999 both original halves of the chassis have been offered for sale in ebay® auctions. I had the bonnet from that car hanging on the wall as art for a couple of decades.


Failures happened. Roughly two out of five used COBRA five bolt units I have come across since 1983 as loose parts had very clear signs that something bad happened inside. Not every failure is catastrophic but some are. A seriously modified engine might over rev seriously if a shift is missed while playing or racing. In 2006 we went and looked at a HP289 engine that literally broke in half when the man drag racing a Mustang since he bought it new missed a shift. I had never seen a 289 engine block laying in two broken puzzle piece halves before so that was an interesting visit. Even if not “raced” a missed shift without a rev limiting electronic controller can be trouble to disaster. We have no idea under what conditions and with what equipment all the damaged ones “happened”. There are countless inappropriate things people can do to and with parts.


It is about acceptable risk. Safety equipment in vehicles wouldn’t be necessary if unintended bad situations didn’t come up. Original Cobras are in no way safe car designs. Good maintenance, top quality parts, defensive driving like you were riding a motorcycle, good tires, drive shaft safety loop, and a steel safety bell housing improve the odds ever so slightly in user favor.

[Dan Case]

There was not "a" cast steel safety bell housing for five bolt engines 1963-64. One company provided several different revision levels of COBRA marked models, plus one under Mickey Thompson's (M/T) brand and one under their own brand.

In addition there was a cast "RC" brand model. Were there other brands/design? I don't know.

Have no idea if the M/T two piece model will fit an original Cobra nor do I know if the RC brand model will fit an original Cobra.

There is no provision for storing Microsoft® PowerPoint® files or *.pdf versions of them on this site that I can find so I can't post my fifteen page slide show covering the COBRA five bolt scatter shield subject.

[legenmetals]

[ATTACH] [/ATTACH]

Attached is a catalog photo of a "cast steel" bell housing. Pictured above is the same housing on my 260 c.i. five bolt.

[peterpjb]

as I know all race cobras were equipped with cast-aluminium bellhousing due to homologation, also nowadays all cobras racing with FIA-HTP should be equipped with alu bellhouses

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

....I am involved in vintage and race cars for about 30 years especially alfa romeo and have never heard about such an issue before...

Peter - I have an Alfa with a 1779cc engine. It's a road car, but its ability to rev to the moon always amazes me (and its original clutch and flywheel are now 41 years old). Just maybe....those Alfa engines and transmissions were so well designed - and balanced - in the first place, and then even more so for the endurance racing that the TZ excelled in, that failures were uncommon.
If you consider the length of a Cobra's footboxes, it's easy to see how vulnerable the driver's legs are if a bell housing doesn't contain a shattered clutch of flywheel

Cheers,
Glen

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

as I know all race cobras were equipped with cast-aluminium bellhousing due to homologation, also nowadays all cobras racing with FIA-HTP should be equipped with alu bellhouses

Period pictures 1963-1965, including forms submitted to the FIA and accepted show COBRA lettered for sure not stock aluminum bell housings. The pictures in the Ford acrhives and other sources show them in use by the time the CSX21xx series "LeMans Replicas" were completed.

The LeMans Replicas, the cut back door race cars, Dragonsnakes (CSX2019 is the lowest chassis number that I know SAI installed a COBRA scattershield on but there might be earlier ones), and Daytona Coupes all count as works race cars. (The best I can tell the AC Cars coupe serial A98 used a stock Ford housing but there is little of the bell housing shown in its new car pictures.)

I don't have photo copies of all the "FIA" papers but I have a some. The FIA forms were not a data dumps of AC Cars, Ford, Shelby, et allii engineering files. I lieu of having a room full of drawings pictures were taken of parts, sometimes assemblies, and sometimes sections of cars like assembled on the car under a fender shot of suspension and brakes. I noticed that in case of dispute at a race that Shelby was advised to have these forms and their pictures ready to prove that they items in question were approved. If picture proves it then if nothing else the FIA approved engine pictures showing a COBRA bell housing should be all that is required.

October 8, 1962 FIA recognition of Cobras and assigned “…FIA Recognition #79.”

No line item for bell housing specification in the forms supplied by the FIA for Shelby to fill out. The bell housing area is not shown in the attached engine photo.

Also interesting:
- 260 c.i.d. engine (actually on the form in cubic centimeters) with 11.5:1 SCR
- Induction was via a single 4V Holley® carburetor on a cast iron SK prefix XHP-260 intake (picture attached).

November 1962 updated FIA forms.

Again, no line item for bell housing specification in the forms supplied by the FIA for Shelby to fill out. No mention of an optional bell housing in the supplemental “Optional equipment…” list added to the forms submitted. My photo copy of the forms is not good enough to determine what kind of bell housing is on the engine shown.

Also interesting:
- 289 c.i.d. engine with 12:1 SCR
- Induction now listed as 4 each Weber 48 IDM carburetors on aluminum intake (picture attached) Legend says it was a wooden mock up painted silver for the photo.
- Magnesium wheels and bigger tires for rear added
- Earliest listing I have come across of all the optional race equipment available at the time.

September 1963 updated FIA forms.

Third set of forms second update and again, no line item for bell housing specification in the forms supplied by the FIA for Shelby to fill out. However the engine assembly photos (2 photos) attached on page 2 clearly shows a COBRA lettered cast steel scatter shield. Again, no mention of an optional bell housing in the supplemental “Optional equipment…” list added to the forms submitted. Okay, so I can’t find an itemized text for bell housing material but what the FIA approved and sent back shows a picture of a Shelby works race engine with a COBRA lettered scatter shield.

Also interesting:
- Pictures of cars and equipment are getting more detailed.
- The chassis that we believe to be CSX2138 shown as an example of multiple racing equipment details.
- 4 each Weber 48 IDM carburetors on COBRA lettered aluminum intake (picture attached)

February 6, 1964 “Re-confirming” FIA papers submittal.

Again, no line item for bell housing specification in the forms supplied by the FIA for Shelby to fill out. However the holotype race Cobra used as an example was CSX2138 and the engine shown in the factory portfolio of the car includes an engine shown with a COBRA lettered scattershield.

Also interesting:
- A picture of CSX2138 as received from England was attached to page 1.
- Aerodynamic hard top now a racing option.
- Steering now rack and pinion.
- Weber 48IDMs still listed

April 15, 1964 “AMENDMENT FORM” (signed off April 11) revising and amending the February 6, 1964 list.

- More optional racing equipment part selections are added

[peterpjb]

its true that in the FIA homologation form 115 there is no specific point to the gearbox material and even in the pictures it cannot be identificated precicely.

But all the additional forms e.g. the one added clarify the fact that all the gearbox material should be aluminium

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by peterpjb

its true that in the FIA homologation form 115 there is no specific point to the gearbox material and even in the pictures it cannot be identificated precicely.But all the additional forms e.g. the one added clarify the fact that all the gearbox material should be aluminum

You seem to be comparing what was (1960s documents and facts) with what is (modern forms)? The current historic FIA has little to do with what happened 1963-65. Several noted historians and several of us amateurs take exception to a lot of what the vintage racers are now allowed, as in much that is allowed now would not have been recognized by somebody inspecting a car in 1963-65. I have helped consult and provide period proof of some disputed subjects. It is in the interest of modern racers to NOT do much of anything like done in 1963-65. (In the 1960s you could have taken a near stock Cobra to an FIA event and race it and some owners did just that. They were not competitive but they participated. From what I recall about my conversations with racers back in the 1960s and 1970s was that with exceptions of some required safety equipment you could race a box stock car if you wanted. The rules and in many cases pictures gave owners lists of things that were approved to use in place of stock components in competition not that they had to.)

The choices for original car owners is have a car the way it was (or could have been if you could afford it) or the way it is allowed now. I have encountered owners of original racers very faithful to their 1960s configurations and they don’t bother to track the cars anymore because they cannot compete with cars built to current “historic” rules. I understand, I have an original car ex-vintage racer that I reverse the process on and went back to 1960s parts. Other than gaskets, pistons, and fluids the newest functional part on the engine is spark plug wires made in 1969. Otherwise parts are 1963-65 mostly, with a few 1966. It is just a street car for me but out playing with other original Cobras that have been modernized it is slow and brakes less aggressively.

Shelby American used and sold race cars with cast iron cased street and racing transmissions depending on time frame. Technically, if a race Cobra was FIA approved in 1962 there wasn’t an aluminum cased COBRA transmission yet.

In good period pictures most people can tell dark cast iron from bright cast aluminum. If the right side of the transmission is shown you can see very large assembly number prefixes stencil painted on the sides of iron cased transmissions Cobras were fitted with. Also worth noting is that even after aluminum cased transmissions went into use street and race, Shelby team car “aluminum” transmission sometimes were retrofitted cast iron tail shaft housing for endurance racing. Shelby sold transmission built up with aluminum main cases and iron tail shaft cases to racers and sold iron tail shaft cases separately so they could make the conversion themselves.

This thread started regarding bell housing so last comments on them I hope, Shelby/Ford didn’t make cast aluminum COBRA lettered bell housings with or without external ribs so all those COBRA lettered housings on works race cars 1963-65 were not stock Ford die cast aluminum bell housings.

Transmissions are a very complicated subject and we have rounded a lot information. What we have to date:

Borg-Warner T10 Design Four Speed Transmissions & Cobras

Most of the information below was compiled by Dick Roush. I have added to what he provided. When something is said about I, me, my, or mine this means Dan Case. In no sense can this commentary be considered complete. Transmissions used in Cobras as a subject is not a short simple subject and there is next to no “Shelby” documentation of what was done when or why. It is not easy to study transmissions in Cobras while they are sitting on their tires. Just because assembly X is in a car today does not mean it was in that car brand new, indeed any car used in serious racing probably went through several transmissions. Any car rebuilt from a wreck or worse yet old paper work should be viewed healthy amount of skepticism.

Could this transmission be original to this Cobra?
If you wonder about a transmission in a particular Cobra, start by comparing the assembly date stamped on the case to when the car was first a running car. (This is not a fool proof process because with enough effort dedicated owners and restorers often track down all manner of parts ‘date correct’ for the cars they work on.) Casting dates and assembly dates don’t align perfectly. The part being cast and when the part was assembled into a transmission are almost different subjects. Early made parts or assemblies can be in most any car but late made parts or assemblies cannot. An unmolested main case without an assembly date code stamped into it denotes that this particular main case was a service part sold separately at some point in time. New street car invoices did not itemize transmission model details. Why any particular street car got any particular gear set available at the time is a mystery.
Assembly Date Example: While the transmission in my red car was out I recorded the assembly code J284 2.
The engine was assembled in a batch produced August 25, 1964. The car was first invoiced as a running car during late November 1964. How does a J284 2 dated transmission fit time wise?
Based on code keys quoted for other cars that used Borg Warner T-10s:
J = September
28 = 28th day of the month
4 = 1964
2 = produced on second shift
An August engine and September transmission make great sense to me for a November car the way Ford and Shelby did things.