Looking for Authenticity How far to go?

[crendonman427sc]

Hi Guys,

Planning for my 1963 - ERA 289 FIA Comp build and I am looking to build a visually Period Correct car.

I am way more into driving than displaying so if having a 1963 289 HIPO Block and Heads, with 5 Bolt narrow bolt pattern Bellhousing and 4 Speed T10 B/W Tranny ALL WITH correct 1963 and 1964 Casting Marks is the way to go?

OR do I just get a more recent 289/302 6 bolt and be done with it?

Just want a 300 - 350 HP streetable drive, no racing, but maybe do the odd track day run.

After all the car is a replica not an original so maybe I am going too far.

Would appreciate some opinions from you guys, as I need to make a decision soon.

Thanks and Regards

David

[xb-60]

Hi David,

I'm in Australia, so not sure about availability of early (5 bolt) 289 engines in the US. The easier way to go would be the 302, and nobody would criticise you for that.
Would you still use a T-10? That would be a nice connection with the period, but would be a more expensive option than using a modern 5 speed. I'm using a Toploader because of the period correctness even though it's not correct for a 289FIA.
Others will no doubt reinforce the following comment comment - it's all up to what you want, it's your car.
I'm really looking forward to your build!

Cheers,
Glen

edit:
If you already sourced the following....

Originally Posted by crendonman427sc

1963 289 HIPO Block Bored .040 (5 Bolt Bell House Pattern)
1963 Pair Original Cast Iron Heads
1963 Bellhouse (5 Bolt - Narrow Style)
1964 4 Speed T10 Transmission

....is there any reason not to continue with this engine/gearbox combination? 300-350 streetable horsepower would be easily attainable.
I would go that route myself if I wasn't constrained by certain (Australian) registration requirements

[crendonman427sc]

Originally Posted by xb-60

edit:
If you already sourced the following....


....is there any reason not to continue with this engine/gearbox combination? 300-350 streetable horsepower would be easily attainable.
I would go that route myself if I wasn't constrained by certain (Australian) registration requirements

Hi Glen,

No I haven't sourced anything yet, (I have first refusal though), as I am still trying to understand whether the period casting numbers on the Block/Heads/Tranny and Bell Housing, would be just a step too far.

At the end of the day no one will know, unless they have a spotlight to see the casting numbers or have a capability of counting up to 6

How can something be a replica, if its totally different to the original?

Mind you, BDR don't do too bad

Regards

David

[xb-60]

At the risk of a minor diversion....what's the story with the Maserati?

Cheers,
Glen

[mikeinatlanta]

No such thing as too far. Do what matters to you.

EDIT: I guess there is such a thing as too far. When you let the quality of, or manufacturer of your car convince you that it is not a replica anymore. Otherwise, any quality build is appreciated for what it is. I'm more into race cars that look like cobra and don't care about originality, but a quality car is a quality car.

[Buzz]

My opinion is that it's absolutely pointless when the two major components of the car - body and chassis - deviate significantly from the original construction. Before someone assessing the "correctness" of such a car by looking that closely at the drivetrain, they would notice the fiberglass body. If you were talking about an aluminum bodied car with a full round tube frame that you wanted to make a project of closely replicating an original, then yes, extra attention to those details would add value towards that goal.
ERA does a masterful job of creating a visually correct replica that has almost everything right in terms of shape, stance and most other visual details, so if it was me, I would focus on just that - making/keeping the car looking "right". I really do not see what value things like correct date coded and casting-marked drivetrain components and authentic jacks and grease guns add to a 'glass bodied car. In fact I don't even get it from a bragging rights perspective.
In most cases it would go like this:
Owner declares: "It's got a 1963 289 HIPO Block and Heads, with 5 Bolt narrow bolt pattern Bellhousing and 4 Speed T10 B/W Tranny ALL WITH correct 1963 and 1964 Casting Marks!"
Pleb replies: "Body's fiberglass, so it's a kit car, right?"

In the event, however, that you are doing this for your own personal satisfaction and not to make an impression on anyone else or to increase the monetary worth of your replica, then by all means absolutely go for it. After all - it's your hobby and your project. Come resale time, you may even be lucky enough to find a buyer who values these details as much as you do, and having them on the car will indeed be a plus.

[1795]

Go with what you can afford and makes you happy. Good 289 blocks are getting harder to find while 302's are much more plentiful. Slap a 289 sticker on the air cleaner and nobody will know the difference.

Jim

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by 1795

Go with what you can afford and makes you happy. Good 289 blocks are getting harder to find while 302's are much more plentiful. Slap a 289 sticker on the air cleaner and nobody will know the difference.

Jim

What Jim said. You can "dress" a 302 to replicate a 289 (dimensionally the same) so that most people can't tell without looking at casting numbers. Plus you can run a roller cam do away with valve adjustments (unless you WANT to) as well as have easy, non-stressed horsepower. My slab has a 302 and I have had numerous people at shows comment about "so that's what a real 289 looks like!"

[1985 CCX]

I agree with Jim and Rick.

It’s harder and more costly for replication details on old block.
That said, I replicated.
Glad I did but time factor was way longer.

[crendonman427sc]

Originally Posted by xb-60

At the risk of a minor diversion....what's the story with the Maserati?

Cheers,
Glen

Originally Posted by xb-60

At the risk of a minor diversion....what's the story with the Maserati?

Cheers,
Glen

Hi Glen,

I have been in Dubai for the past 12 years and raced here for 5 years, before I got serious health issues in 2011.

Radical SR5 - 2006 - 2009

Radical SR8 - 2009 - 2010

Maserati Gran Turismo MC 2010 -2011

I wanted to Drive a Ginetta in the 2010 UAE GT Championship , but unfortunately was pipped by a young upcomer Joe Ghanem

Anyway, Gulfsport who ran the Ginetta were approached by Maserati to run two cars on a semi works basis in the Championship. Gulfsport contacted me and offered me a drive, which I gladly accepted.

Young Joe Ghanem ended the season as Champion!

[crendonman427sc]

Originally Posted by Buzz

My opinion is that it's absolutely pointless when the two major components of the car - body and chassis - deviate significantly from the original construction. Before someone assessing the "correctness" of such a car by looking that closely at the drivetrain, they would notice the fiberglass body. If you were talking about an aluminum bodied car with a full round tube frame that you wanted to make a project of closely replicating an original, then yes, extra attention to those details would add value towards that goal.
ERA does a masterful job of creating a visually correct replica that has almost everything right in terms of shape, stance and most other visual details, so if it was me, I would focus on just that - making/keeping the car looking "right". I really do not see what value things like correct date coded and casting-marked drivetrain components and authentic jacks and grease guns add to a 'glass bodied car. In fact I don't even get it from a bragging rights perspective.
In most cases it would go like this:
Owner declares: "It's got a 1963 289 HIPO Block and Heads, with 5 Bolt narrow bolt pattern Bellhousing and 4 Speed T10 B/W Tranny ALL WITH correct 1963 and 1964 Casting Marks!"
Pleb replies: "Body's fiberglass, so it's a kit car, right?"

In the event, however, that you are doing this for your own personal satisfaction and not to make an impression on anyone else or to increase the monetary worth of your replica, then by all means absolutely go for it. After all - it's your hobby and your project. Come resale time, you may even be lucky enough to find a buyer who values these details as much as you do, and having them on the car will indeed be a plus.

Thanks Buzz,

Some very good points made there, particularly the discussion with the pleb

Its given me some food for thought, thanks for your input

[crendonman427sc]

Originally Posted by 1795

Go with what you can afford and makes you happy. Good 289 blocks are getting harder to find while 302's are much more plentiful. Slap a 289 sticker on the air cleaner and nobody will know the difference.

Jim

Good Point made Jim. Thanks

[crendonman427sc]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

I agree with Jim and Rick.

It’s harder and more costly for replication details on old block.
That said, I replicated.
Glad I did but time factor was way longer.

Thanks Jeff,

I am really torn between the two, (and only options), my heart tells me go for originality, my head tells me go similar , it may save some money!!

When was the last time my head ruled my heart?

[Mongoose930]

"Originality" in a replica is a balancing act between functionality, safety and appearance. For instance, I have rebuilt my ignition and boot locks to have the same key code / keys as original Cobras, yet I am running Wilwood vs. Girling brakes. I have a correct date coded DR3 wiper motor (very expensive), but a TKO600 transmission vs. toploader. I have a 482 stroker engine, but my rollbar bolt is pointing directly at the back of my skull (just like the originals). It is your car so you have to decide what feels right for you. You will figure it out...

[Mongoose930]

By the way, the part about saving money. That ship has sailed...

[LMH]

Too far is representing one thats not an original, as an original. Other than that... !
Larry

[Ivygreen65]

David,

I was in the same boat as you regarding the build of my 289 street car. I wanted to build as correct a replica as I could, but at the end of the day, it was still a fiberglass body and still a kit. I’m working towards a somewhat accurate replica (I do have DR3 wiper motor), but there is no leaf spring suspension and the body is plastic. That has actually taken the pressure off of my build because I can use what original parts I have acquired while not stressing over not being able to find Gold Seal hose clamps. I have done a Mustang Club of America 700 point restoration and know what it’s like to do every part right. It’s rewarding but exhausting and you don’t enjoy the car nearly as much when finished. The goal for my Cobra is to have a car I’m satisfied with the level I built it to but also to have a car I feel comfortable with driving on a long weekend trip and not freaking out when a stray rock from passing traffic hits it.

[Dumpling]

My engine is an original early 60's "date coded" 289 motor rebuilt to new specs with all the best modern hi-performance components (Edelbrock aluminum heads, roller rockers, etc.) by Southern Automotive to put out 360 HP. The Shelby's have a NEW aluminum block 331CI. My car is more "accurate" to the originals compared to the Shelby anniversary cars in this respect. If you look at the engine photos, you will see it has lots of billet goodies and is accurate in it's detail to the original Cobras.

From a for sale ad here.

His car is more accurate than the original. That's what you should aim for ;-)

[eschaider]

Originally Posted by crendonman427sc

Hi Guys,

Planning for my 1963 - ERA 289 FIA Comp build and I am looking to build a visually Period Correct car.

This is an easy answer. Just do it.

Originally Posted by crendonman427sc

I am way more into driving than displaying so if having a 1963 289 HIPO Block and Heads, with 5 Bolt narrow bolt pattern Bellhousing and 4 Speed T10 B/W Tranny ALL WITH correct 1963 and 1964 Casting Marks is the way to go?

OR do I just get a more recent 289/302 6 bolt and be done with it?

Now we are managing to conflict a pretty straight forward goal by moving the goal posts.

Originally Posted by crendonman427sc

Just want a 300 - 350 HP streetable drive, no racing, but maybe do the odd track day run.

Obviously we felt the goal post needed one more nudge to be in better conflict with the original goal.

Originally Posted by crendonman427sc

After all the car is a replica not an original so maybe I am going too far.

Spot on! Now we have a fairly easy to see conflict, even for the casual observer, with no possible resolution that will satisfy all goals

Originally Posted by crendonman427sc

Would appreciate some opinions from you guys, as I need to make a decision soon.

Thanks and Regards

David

I think you have prepared an excellent Denver Omelet of goals and conflicts that is for all intents and purposes insoluble.

You are to be congratulated, this is not an easy goaling matrix to achieve ...



Ed

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by crendonman427sc

....Would appreciate some opinions from you guys....

eschaider,
Nothing wrong with asking for opinions....