FIA Knock off Spinners

[Ron Scarboro]

Quick question and apologies if there is a thread on this (I searched, but couldn’t get anything definitive).

For an original car would the knock off spinner have a logo?

I’ve seen “Halibrand” in the indented area of the ear, “Shelby American Inc” on the hub, “Cobra Racing” “Halibrand Engineering Torrance” on the hub and no incription at all.

Would they have been Aluminum or Stainless or something else?

Thank you,

Ron

[Dan Case]

Any of the general versions of center lock wing nuts (a.k.a. knock offs) Ted Halibrand’s company supplied to Shelby American could be used on any ‘pin drive’ race wheel providing that the machining of wheels and nuts mated properly (specifications varied year to year and car to car and wheel type to wheel type).

The first nut design was adopted from other earlier racing cars and was made of cast steel. They were used in all types of racing including ‘FIA’ events and drag racing. Being cast steel they were somewhat fragile and were often broken, usually during removal.

Shelby American wise these were replaced by a new much stronger forged aluminum design. Harvey Aluminum® forged the blanks and Halibrand machined them to suit various Shelby cars as well as many other types of race and street cars and specific wheel combinations.

Shelby American wise the strongest were the final cadmium plated forged steel versions; also machined to fit various Shelby race and street cars and specific wheel combinations.




1964-65 pictures of SA team cars show both forged aluminum and forged steel in use. Note that on the forged steel parts "HALIBRAND ENG. CO." text runs clockwise and "TORRANCE CAL" runs counter clockwise around the center.

[Mark IV]

Once more we all learn from Dan. Thanks! More info to file in my mental hard drive which is full so I have to delete something to make room. Usually something my wife asked me to do...………..

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Once more we all learn from Dan. Thanks! More info to file in my mental hard drive which is full so I have to delete something to make room. Usually something my wife asked me to do...………..

You are welcome. These things are very complicated 'factory original' wise because tapers and inner diameters were machined differently for different wheels, different chassis number ranges, so on and so forth.

Example: Most race Cobras (roadsters and coupes) SA completed with forged aluminum nuts had four different nuts engineering wise per car. There was the left hand and right hand threads of course but also nuts intended for wheels machined for front hubs on front hubs and nuts intended for wheels machined for rear hubs on rear hubs. Post factory days users got in trouble mixing where wheels went and which nut went where. In the 1970s I saw on ex-racer with rear nuts barely on one and a half thread turns.

[Dan Case]

I have at least one of every version nut that AC, Shelby, FAV, or Kar Kraft/HM used on street or race Cobras, all the GT40 variants including J-cars, and 427 Cobras except the three forged steel production variants. Some I know which car they were originally installed on.

I don't have samples of the forged steel ones because I get too soft hearted when somebody doing an high end restoration 'needs just one more' nut to complete their car. I have had several of all of the forges steel ones in my hands but all went to high end restorations. (Not interested in the 1968 and later ones sold as replacement parts; either version of forging tool.)

Someday I want to create a wall display in chronological order but I have to come up with some forged steel samples...................

[Ron Scarboro]

Exactly what I wanted to know. I assume correct ones are unobtainium?

[CompClassics]

To expound further on Dan’s history lesson the knock off with the “55” on it Dan informed me is a production line part. Chronologically I believe the first knock offs were cast iron, forged steel (Halibrand etc next to threads) and then a mix of forged aluminum (Harvey) and forged steel (Halibrand etc next to threads). I have included an original GT40 (Harvey, anodized blue) to ad to Dan’s photos....

[Dan Case]

There were also forged versions that the wings were curved back significantly like with a press.

Late 427 Cobras with Sunbursts usually had nuts machined with smaller tapers. Some CSX33xx cars got aluminum nuts on one side and steel on the other.

KO nut specifics and applications is a very complicated subject for owners restoring original cars that lost their original parts over time. (As early as 1969 it was very common for every car to get their KOs reworked ("restored") or replaced every time the cars changed hands. Even a few original owners detailed their cars before the 1970s after they figured out the cars as new cars were done. I have seen very low mile (as low as 800 original mile) 427 Cobras with post production nuts in use.)

[CompClassics]

Some mor reference photos.......early Cobra and late Cobra

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by Ron Scarboro

Exactly what I wanted to know. I assume correct ones are unobtainium?

Original 1960s Cobra thread size wise: Used aluminum ones (usable originals made late 1963/early1964-mid 68) are rare. New old stock ones and twos at a time are still coming out of ex-racer collections or estates but they are very rare and often very expensive. I have helped restorers collect a correct new old stock set for whatever they are working on and it usually takes a few to several years to come up with a matching set...at least that has been my experience.

Ones made by some version of Halibrand Engineering mid-1968 until at least the 1980s machined to various thread specifications and taper specifications are offered for sale on various websites including ebay® used and new old stock.

I have purchased new old stock nuts from sellers that didn't seem to be able to work measuring calipers or count threads per inch that turned out to be the wrong "size" for original cars.

I can't tell you much about the multiple reproductions that have been being sold since the late 1970s.

I am using late 1960s versions from Halibrand on CSX2551.

[Ron Scarboro]

Wow, what a wealth of knowledge. Thank you all.

[CompClassics]

The “55” stamped on the production line knock off indicates the thread pitch.

[fastd]

curious: mine say "Halibrand" inside the ear on the front. on the back there are 3 castings: "Alcoa" on one ear, "H326A" on the next and "6061" on the last. do these casting given an indication of vintage or anything else interesting?

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by fastd

curious: mine say "Halibrand" inside the ear on the front. on the back there are 3 castings: "Alcoa" on one ear, "H326A" on the next and "6061" on the last. do these casting given an indication of vintage or anything else interesting?

H326A was Ted Halibrand's number for the raw forgings. Raw forgings could be machined and otherwise processed to suit several different types of cars. 6061 is the aluminum alloy and the number without a suffix doesn't describe any stress relieving, aging, or hardening treatments Halibrand put finished parts through.

Blanks (raw unmachined forgings) made before mid summer 1968 (all the originals from SA) were forged by the Harvey Aluminum company and had Harvey's logo on the reverse of one wing. ALCOA bought Harvey Aluminum in mid summer 1968. When ALCOA started forging blanks for Halibrand Engineering the new blanks had ALCOA on them making differentiating Cobra period parts from later parts real easy.

Sometime around maybe 1969 or later a new set of forging dies were made and they of course were marked ALCOA. If you put early and late versions of ALCOA marked parts side by side you can see differences due to different tooling.

[Dan Case]

Unrelated to wheels but Harvey Aluminum also forged blanks for some makers of aluminum flywheels with inserted friction faces for clutches. Find one marked HARVEY ALUMINUM and it was made before ALCOA bought Harvey mid 1968.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by CompClassics

The “55” stamped on the production line knock off indicates the thread pitch.

The addition of the 55 identification seems to have been implemented during 427 Cobra production as original nuts in both steel and aluminum got the stamped. (I have seen modern fake stampings also.)

Look enough and you will find original aluminum nuts also marked 'L' for direction of threads, especially in service parts. So you might find early left hand nuts with no markings followed by ones marked just 'L", ones marked just '55', or ones marked '55 L'. I have not come across an original 'factory' stamped indicating 'R'.

I have also come across original aluminum nuts with a blue paint color code on them but right off I don't recall if that was tied to direction of threads or not....I can't guess how many originals and replacements I have looked at in the last four decades. (From new old stock to severely beaten with big steel hammers.)

A small number of original aluminum nuts have small round indentions in them where metal hardeness by weighted ball was tested. I would guess that random testing of finished parts was done as most industries did.

Late GT40s and Ford MKIVs got left and right aluminum nuts dyed and anodized in different colors to indicate which direction of threads they had.

[Kit Coyle]

Many ERA Cobras come equipped with aluminum knock-offs marked with
Halibrand on the outside of each ear as per the originals but with no markings
on the back side. I assume these are "re-pops" made with new dies? Were
they made in the late 20thC by Halibrand or by someone else? I know there is
no historical significance to these items but it is still interesting and I very much
appreciate ERA's attention to these details as for me it is all about the "look"...
on the outside, anyway!

[Snek]

OK Folks:

I'm running out of options.
I have tried just about every way I can think of to remove the two rear spinners from my 65 Contempory Classic.

It's coming down to cutting them off....
Sad, but true.

But, before I do that, can you all recommend where I can pick up a L & R set?
Aluminum I presume as I heard that Stainless can tear up the wheels.

At least now I can drive the car, but when those spinners come off I had better have something to replace them with.

As a side note, this weekend I got to spend some time with Ted Sutton a fabricator for Shelby. He put the first 427 in a cobra. Real nice guy with all sorts of stories.

Anyway back to the spinners.
Any suggestions for replacements or last ditch efforts to get these things unstuck?

Thanks

Dave

[1985 CCX]

Spray with penetrating oil, let sit then do it again next day
Be sure spinners are on correclty, RS of car is LH thread.
Never assume this is right, if whom ever put on the hubs did it backwards you may need hit other way....

Never failed me yet, are you using a lead hammer?
Smaller hammers may not work

[twobjshelbys]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

Spray with penetrating oil, let sit then do it again next day
Be sure spinners are on correclty, RS of car is LH thread.
Never assume this is right, if whom ever put on the hubs did it backwards you may need hit other way....

Never failed me yet, are you using a lead hammer?
Smaller hammers may not work

Wheels on the ground. With a 5Lb or bigger lead mallet. Not one of the shot hammers, they don't transfer the energy well. Hit each ear in succession.

You can try the tools mentioned in the other place you asked this question but if you've not gotten them loose yet chances are they won't work any better. A combination of the two might help though. Put tension on the spinner with the tool and then bang it with the hammer.

PS. You know this topic is 5 years old...