Cobra lettered bellhousing

[MAStuart]

Dan I have always been a fan of vintage speed parts. At the swap meets around here you don't see much old speed parts any more. At the Ohio Ford swap last thanksgiving there was lots to old performance parts there. The old speed parts are out there but hard to find and getting expensive.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Dan I have always been a fan of vintage speed parts. At the swap meets around here you don't see much old speed parts any more. At the Ohio Ford swap last thanksgiving there was lots to old performance parts there. The old speed parts are out there but hard to find and getting expensive.

There is no telling how much has been discarded or melted down. Lots of family members don’t get deep into their family’s car enthusiast nuts and bolts activities I bet. Original Cobra parts wise, the best parts and lowest prices are often ones misidentified in estate sales. Every year ever more caches of 1962-1970 stuff come out of hiding as either the enthusiast drastically downsizes, gets very ill, or dies. Original Cobras and parts have been coming up for sale recently just as part of downsizing. Something like, “Yeah, I have had that (insert the description of all kinds of goodies) for (insert maybe one to five) decades. I thought I would use it but now I realize I won’t.”

In part some of the extreme sales prices or outrageous trades have been due to the realization us ‘baby boomers’ aren’t going to be out driving play cars and or living another four decades. I have waited decades to buy something like C6FE GT40 / Group II heads until my disposable income was truly disposable into play. Real dollar wise on my income curve, race cylinder heads were cheaper in 2002 than 1969.

A place look to look for or ask about 1964 and earlier “speed & sport” type accessories is the H.A.M.B.
forum.

[cobrakiwi]

I dug this one out this morning, I am looking for good pictures of this type bell if anybody has any and can share would be greatly appreciated.

I am missing the lower half, I am hoping to find the missing half but if I need to I will fab something up hence the request for pictures.
Thanks

[1795]

Originally Posted by Dan Case

There is no telling how much has been discarded or melted down. Lots of family members don’t get deep into their family’s car enthusiast nuts and bolts activities I bet. Original Cobra parts wise, the best parts and lowest prices are often ones misidentified in estate sales. Every year ever more caches of 1962-1970 stuff come out of hiding as either the enthusiast drastically downsizes, gets very ill, or dies. Original Cobras and parts have been coming up for sale recently just as part of downsizing. Something like, “Yeah, I have had that (insert the description of all kinds of goodies) for (insert maybe one to five) decades. I thought I would use it but now I realize I won’t.”

In part some of the extreme sales prices or outrageous trades have been due to the realization us ‘baby boomers’ aren’t going to be out driving play cars and or living another four decades. I have waited decades to buy something like C6FE GT40 / Group II heads until my disposable income was truly disposable into play. Real dollar wise on my income curve, race cylinder heads were cheaper in 2002 than 1969.

A place look to look for or ask about 1964 and earlier “speed & sport” type accessories is the H.A.M.B.
forum.

Dan,

You raised good point about us "baby boomers" aging. I wonder hw that will effect the price of Shelby related cars/items 5-20 years from now? More and more stuff will be coming on the market as people divest themselves of materials/cars, or pass away. The younger generations are not as enamored with these cars as we are. It happens to everything in life. Eventually what was thought to be worth a lot of money falls by the wayside as people move on towards newer things. Not sure when that will happen, but it will eventually.

As always, enjoy reading your posts. We need to make sure that the knowledge that you have gathered is kept and that you take on an apprentice to carry on your work when it is time.

Take care,

Jim

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by cobrakiwi

I dug this one out this morning, I am looking for good pictures of this type bell if anybody has any and can share would be greatly appreciated.

I am missing the lower half, I am hoping to find the missing half but if I need to I will fab something up hence the request for pictures.
Thanks

Made by the same company that made the COBRA, TIGER, and 427 Cobra models. You are missing a thick cast steel part.

PM me with your email address and I'll send you some information.

[MAStuart]

Originally Posted by 1795

Dan,

You raised good point about us "baby boomers" aging. I wonder hw that will effect the price of Shelby related cars/items 5-20 years from now? More and more stuff will be coming on the market as people divest themselves of materials/cars, or pass away. The younger generations are not as enamored with these cars as we are. It happens to everything in life. Eventually what was thought to be worth a lot of money falls by the wayside as people move on towards newer things. Not sure when that will happen, but it will eventually.

As always, enjoy reading your posts. We need to make sure that the knowledge that you have gathered is kept and that you take on an apprentice to carry on your work when it is time.

Take care,

Jim

Was talking to some guys that were into 55-57 tbirds. Asked about the price of the cars. Told them I have seen some and the price seems to be coming down. Was told the kids could care less about old cars and the old guys like us that like the stuff are dying off.

[MAStuart]

Hey I was looking thru Bob Mannel's book. On page J8 it says that 64 comets with the 289 hipo option came with a scatter shield. But under the option parts list it lists C4OZ-6394-A as flywheel housing, cast iron. I will have to go out and look to see what the part number is on my 64 Fairlane aluminum bell housing. I checked and it was a C3 number with a 64 casting date like I thought it would be.

Anyhow I was wondering . By late in 63 was Ford having Dearborn steel tubing box these and other cobra kits parts up? Or would they be getting the scatter shields from Shelby? I wonder what version of the scatter shield the Comet would have come with from ford?

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Hey I was looking thru Bob Mannel's book. O
Anyhow I was wondering . By late in 63 was Ford having Dearborn steel tubing box these and other cobra kits parts up? Or would they be getting the scatter shields from Shelby? I wonder what version of the scatter shield the Comet would have come with from ford?

Refer to reply #14. All the packages of any part, size pack, and year I have seen as "Cobra Kit" items with shipping labels had DST return addressed labels.


Evidence suggests that versions 1 and 2 were obtained by SA directly for their applications, version 3 is sort of a missing link with a Ford aftermarket accessory engineering number, and all the others with Ford 'production type' engineering numbers came through Ford-DST.

Day one onward, not everything customers could get was the same as SA bought or made for their own use. This has misled countless people since the 1960s who assume incorrectly that everything in a SA catalog or parts list is the same as used in new cars, street or race, SA completed.

[MAStuart]

I guess what I was saying is that I was surprised the a 1964 comet would have come from Ford with one of these scatter shields from the factory if it was ordered with the 289 HIPO. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else that any of the cars that could be ordered with a 289 HIPO had one of these scatter shields from the factory.


So I assume Ford had Dearborn steel tubing start packing Cobra kits sometime in 1963?

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

I guess what I was saying is that I was surprised the a 1964 comet would have come from Ford with one of these scatter shields from the factory if it was ordered with the 289 HIPO. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else that any of the cars that could be ordered with a 289 HIPO had one of these scatter shields from the factory.


So I assume Ford had Dearborn steel tubing start packing Cobra kits sometime in 1963?

Starting point of DST packed Cobra kits, no idea.

Cobra goodies were announced to Ford dealers through the internal Shop Tips magazine issue of February 1964. The issue was proclaimed "SPECIAL FEATURE! COBRA KITS! NEW FROM FORD!".

Ak Miller was the focal point for enthusiasts wanting 1963-64 racing Ford parts and Miller and Ford published race engine parts lists and how to publications. The Shelby American Performance Equipment book didn’t come out until circa April 1965 and was revised May 1965. The mass quantities of “COBRA” catalogs that got wide distribution to anybody any company that wanted them was in 1966. The 1963 parts list for stock and race parts was a dealer only item as far as I know and covered mostly racing options. SA filed a copy and an amended copy with the racing clubs around the word. I have heard of a 1964 SA list but never seen one or have any idea how extensive its coverage was.

[TomP]

Info on 1964 HiPo Comets is certainly not easy to find. I'm surprised too if they came with that steel bellhousing.

[PDUB]

Dan, which size toploader bearing retainers fit these? Is it the older small version? I imagine that these were for the T-10, originally, and then the toploader, later.

[Dan Case]

Originally Posted by PDUB

Dan, which size toploader bearing retainers fit these? Is it the older small version? I imagine that these were for the T-10, originally, and then the toploader, later.

The five bolt Ford housings were manufactured for the size bearing retainers Borg-Warner T10 transmissions had. From my notes, most Ford "top loader" units were made to match up with bell housings for six bolt bell housing engines. Those transmissions had a larger diameter bearing retainer, too large for an unmodified five bolt bell housing.

I don't know about the special Sunbeam Tiger Ford top loader transmissions. Many people say that they are a direct bolt in swap into a five bolt engine. (More than a few Cobras got Tiger transmission transplants after their original transmissions were damaged or destroyed.)

The only COBRA part made for a five bolt engine that I have personally seen that would accept a standard "top loader" had been machined to enlarge its bearing retainer opening. Unfortunately, the machinist got the modification very off location so that housing became a piece of wall art.

A few companies produced cast steel housings in the 1960s that mounted to a five bolt Ford 221/260/289 c.i.d. V8 engines. At least two, and maybe a third counting the Cobra part family, would fit between the main tube frame rails for a Cobra. Most aftermarket housings cast or pressed steel would not just bolt in. I get a weak feeling when I come across some of the modifications owners did between the 1960s and the 1990s. Cutting sections out of these protective devices with a torch (sometimes it looks like during engine installation with the engine hanging in the engine bay) for frame clearance defeats the concept of ‘total containment’. Cutting a notch or notches in a Cobra’s not real strong in the first place frame is really scary. Beating bell housing clearance into a frame rail is not a good engineering practice either. Using all kinds of home grown ways to jack either the right side of the engine up or both sides up probably is not great for handling but seen that on several original Cobras with aftermarket bell housings.

During 1964 Shelby American started the 1965 MUSTANG GT350 project. That included a new COBRA lettered part for six bolt block 289 c.i.d. engines. (Buyer beware. At least two companies have made copies of the COBRA six bolt design. They advertised them as cast iron. The drawings for originals call out SAE 1030 steel.)

[CompClassics]

I bought a 1964 Comet that had a correctly date coded 289 Hipo and a 4-speed transmission out of Michigan about 9 years ago. Supposedly 289 Hipo Comets are a myth. I can tell you that the VIN number had a “K” in it although that is also not a telltale sign of a factory Hipo Comet. This Comet had a single exhaust with standard 289 cast iron manifolds. I have lots of photos from this Comet on a computer that is in storage. It originally came out of Las Angeles, went to Salt Lake City and then to Michigan. Needless to say the rust was so bad the car was not restorable. Everything on the car was date coded perfectly for a factory built car, it was white with a blue interior. I still have access to the engine which was complete from the oil pan to the carburetor and from the water pump to the bell housing, the bell housing was the standard aluminum production part not any kind of scatter shield. I still have the transmission (T10) and the bellhousing.

[MAStuart]

Regarding the top loader front bearing retainer size. Yes the 5 bolt Cobra scatter shield takes the small front bearing retainer. The narrow bolt pattern top loader has a small front bearing retainer. The sunbeam tiger and the 64 fairlane takes the same length top loader. That trans is shorter than the one that come in a cobra. The cobra used a galaxie length trans. So there was 3 length of top loader trans with the small bearing front retainer. The mustang top loader is the shortest of the 3. 641/2 mustang's were 5 bolt so they to used the small front bearing retainer. Also the 6 bolt top loader could be fitted to a 5 bolt bellhousing by changing the front bearing retainer. They can be swapped with no problems. The 6 bolt trans also has 8 mounting holes also.

[MAStuart]

Originally Posted by CompClassics

I bought a 1964 Comet that had a correctly date coded 289 Hipo and a 4-speed transmission out of Michigan about 9 years ago. Supposedly 289 Hipo Comets are a myth. I can tell you that the VIN number had a “K” in it although that is also not a telltale sign of a factory Hipo Comet. This Comet had a single exhaust with standard 289 cast iron manifolds. I have lots of photos from this Comet on a computer that is in storage. It originally came out of Las Angeles, went to Salt Lake City and then to Michigan. Needless to say the rust was so bad the car was not restorable. Everything on the car was date coded perfectly for a factory built car, it was white with a blue interior. I still have access to the engine which was complete from the oil pan to the carburetor and from the water pump to the bell housing, the bell housing was the standard aluminum production part not any kind of scatter shield. I still have the transmission (T10) and the bellhousing.

Did the car have a 9 inch rear end ? If it came from the factory with a hipo it would of had one. Also the mercury line did not use the k for the hipo engine code. When I find where the info is at I will post more on this. In the past when I played with comets I came across several k code comets, None had 9 inch rears. All were single exausts. And I think they were all 289 4 barrel carbs. Bob Mannel's book has some info on the Hipo comets and there engine codes. Ok I found some of the info. A k code engine in the 64 comet line up means most were 289 4 barrel reg fuel engines. Also if it was a special order it could also be a 289 hipo.

[msper]

Originally Posted by CompClassics

I bought a 1964 Comet that had a correctly date coded 289 Hipo and a 4-speed transmission out of Michigan about 9 years ago. Supposedly 289 Hipo Comets are a myth. I can tell you that the VIN number had a “K” in it although that is also not a telltale sign of a factory Hipo Comet. This Comet had a single exhaust with standard 289 cast iron manifolds. I have lots of photos from this Comet on a computer that is in storage. It originally came out of Las Angeles, went to Salt Lake City and then to Michigan. Needless to say the rust was so bad the car was not restorable. Everything on the car was date coded perfectly for a factory built car, it was white with a blue interior. I still have access to the engine which was complete from the oil pan to the carburetor and from the water pump to the bell housing, the bell housing was the standard aluminum production part not any kind of scatter shield. I still have the transmission (T10) and the bellhousing.

Hi......I would like to discuss that Comet with you....Please contact me. I love these very special cars and have been researching/hunting them for decades. I have owned and seen/inspected, talked to owners of the majority of the small handful that still exist over this time period.
I own both a 1964 and a 1965 Factory 289 Hipo Cyclones. I am currently working on a document/book which will have the history of these vehicles and it will document the similarities & differences between a 64 and a 65 Hipo Comet and the special components they are comprised of…..this will be very Comet specific, I am not going to get into “what is a 289 Hipo motor”...Bob Mannel’s book covers that. This is a labor of love to assemble and I am taking the time and due diligence to assure its accuracy….I am not sure when it will be completed as free time is far and few between lately. I hope there will be a few of us that would find it interesting.....hopefully it will clear up a lot of the BS and confusion that surround these cars. If there is ANYTHING anyone would like to discuss regarding this effort, please reach out to me directly......Thanks Mark