stroked small blocks in the race cars?

[PDUB]

What iron heads did you use, Jim? Is it a stock 289 crank and rods?

[CompClassics]

There is mention of qualifying engines up to 32? CI mentioned in the SAAC Registry. The cranks were made from steel crankshafts from the 255” Ford Quad Cam Indy engines that utilized 289 Ford architecture. The steel crankshafts were modified for wet sump use by machining the front pork chop so that the oil pump drive shaft would clear the crank, the weight that was removed from the front pork chop was relocated to the center of the crank for balancing purposes. The rod journals were stroked .189” over the stock 289 dimension. As Dan had pointed out the main journals had oil grooves cut in them. The main journals were cross drilled. Another cool feature of these crank shafts were the main oil feed galleys which had fitted plugs that were held in with c-clips, very similar to the 427 crank shafts. I forgot to mention the snout of the crank had the extra length for the additional pulleys (dry sump etc) machined down to the standard 289 wet sump dimensions.
I was fortunate enough to locate and purchase a complete rotating assembly for one of these engines years ago from a private party in Santa Monica, Ca. The purchase included, crank, a fully degreed Hipo balancer, 289 Hipo rods and I believe Speed Pro pistons, I have to check my notes.
I utilized the, crank shaft, balancer, replaced the Hipo rods with BOSS 302 rods and replaced the pistons. There was also information where the first pork chop was machined with the stroke increase number as well as the customer info by the machine shop.

[PDUB]

Thanks for the info, John! Now that you mention it, I think we talked about these part years ago, when you were about to get them! I am reading the 0.189" increase to the crank throw as giving a stroke of just under three and a quart, right at 3.248" which gives a 326.524ci displacement with a standard bore. That probably accounts for the 327 noted by olddog, above.

Did you use these in your 289 car?

[olddog]

There is what Shelby advertised and sold to the public and then there is what Shelby raced.

Some years back I came across an article with a picture of a 289 hipo on Fords dyno showing rpm, torque, and Hp. This was a full out racing engine fully supported by Ford engineers back in the mid sixties. Something that Shelby would most likely had access to. It was all factory castings. From memory it was 450 Hp give or take a few. I'm not sure about the rpm but it was in the 7000 to 8000 rpm range. I think closer to 8000.

Now full disclosure. I have severe sleep apnea which doctors think caused some permeant brain damage in the memory area of my brain. I also have cirrhosis of the liver (about half way to needing a transplant) and the chemical changes to my blood have made my memory problems worse. So although I could be remembering this wrong, it feels like I am remembering it right, as I was so surprised they were capable of this back then.

Going a little further, we all think aluminum heads are required to make the big power today. Not true. Aluminum, I suspect, is mainly used because it is much easier on tools and much faster to machine. Most builders will tell you that iron heads, all other factors equal, will make more power. Top racers back in the day knew how to port factory heads.

A 289 making 350 ft lb of torque is believable. The torque will have dropped off considerably before reaching peak Hp. Let's assume 290 on torque at 8000 rpm, which is 442 Hp. Given that they used different correction factors on dyno charts back then, this would have been well over 450 Hp. Even if I am wrong, I believe it was very possible. I too would appreciate Brent's thoughts on this.

I did do some google searches and could not find what I was looking for

[eschaider]

For those inquiring minds interested in bore / stroke dimensions this might help a bit. I don't recall the actual displacement so I built a quick and dirty table in XL to calculate strokes for various displacements using a standard 4" 289 cylinder bore.

This is what it looks like;

..Bore......Disp.....Stroke.....Incr Over Stock

4.000"......323.....3.213".........0.338"
4.000"......325.....3.233".........0.358"
4.000"......327.....3.253".........0.378"
4.000"......329.....3.273".........0.398"

Approximately every 0.020" increase in stroke adds 2 cubic inches of displacement.


Ed

[PDUB]

Well, according to John's numbers, 2.87" + 0.378" over the stock throw, the stroke is 3.248", which doesn't quite get to 327ci... but it is close! I figure you are backing the stroke out of the whole number displacements...

[1795]

Originally Posted by PDUB

What iron heads did you use, Jim? Is it a stock 289 crank and rods?

Paul,

I am using Dart Iron Eagle heads with that are 58 cc. I was using a stock crank, but am going to a light weight forged steel crank from Scat. They have one that they will be cutting and forming in January. Also going from Eagle H rods to lighter I beam rods and custom pistons. The lightweight crank will be approximately 42 lbs, as compared to the standard weight of 48 lbs. Should spin up quicker and should move my power band up to the 8,000 rpm range. With the Webers I will still have all sorts of low end torque.

another difference between modern engines and what Shelby was running back then is that a lot of race engines are in the 12-14:1 compression ratio range, I was at 12.5:1. Shelby tended to stay around 10.5-11:1 from what I recall. He wanted to ensure longevity. High compression engines fail quicker when running at high rpms for long periods. I actually will be backing down to about 11-11.5:1 for this refresh. Hoping that the engine will last a little longer.

The engine builder asked me if I wanted to stroke the engine, and I said "No, stroking is not allowed unless it was previously used in racing", guess that I might have been wrong.

Loving this discussion. Hopefully Brent will chime in. Thanks for sharing all of your extensive research Dan.

Jim

[CompClassics]

PDUB,

Yes, I used the crank and dampener in my 289, it works great! I changed out the rods for BOSS 302 rods that are a little stronger than the 289 hipo rods that the rotating assembly came with. I also had custom forged pistons made.

[MAStuart]

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

[MAStuart]

I think a long time ago the hot setup was to use a 292 or 312 crank . I think they remachine them to fit a 289 if you wanted a forged steel crank.

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

Great info! The C6FE heads are repopped by Curt Vogt, who now owns the rights. If memory serves me correctly, they are extremely expensive, like $4,000.00 for a set of raw/unmachined castings and approaching $10,000.00 for a full-up, race-prepared set. His company, Cobra Automotive, does a lot of Cobra motors and vintage racing. You can call them, if you are interested, to get accurate pricing. He has a Mustang that is killer, but I think it runs in a different class than stock.


Who is the person porting 289 heads on the east coast? Is it Curt's group? How much does it cost?

[MAStuart]

Paul I dont know who owns the rights to the C6Fe casting . I would have thought it would be ford. Do you have any idea how Curt would of ended up owning the rights to the Ford C6FE castings? I believe tthe guy that does the cnc work is Mike Carlquest. I was under the impression he is the guy that does the engine work for Cobra automotive and the guy that was having the heads done. I could be wrong and be just spreading rumors. Anyhow i know he has a cnc program to do Gurney Eagle heads . He said he can pick up a lot of flow over the way they wer sold over the counter. He also did the small block ford head that was in the last engine masters that got 2 place.

[1795]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

The engine builder was not trying to sell me on things that I did not need. When he had the engine disassembled he called me and had me come look at things. The block was going to need to be rebored and it was already .030 over; I did not want to risk going to .040 over as that starts to increase the risk of failure running at high rpms for extended periods as the water jackets get awful thin. It's one thing on a street engine or drag strip, but another thing on a road race engine. I do run our long sessions at times and that puts a stress on the engine.

Cobra Automotive (Curt Vogt) makes some nice engines, but at $30-$35 K they are a little out of my league, especially when after 20 hours you have to tear them down and replace parts. If it were a street engine that you probably would never tear down again, it's one thing, but every two years that is a lot of money.

I am trying to approximate what they do without the expense. Will not be at that level, but a little closer is good enough for me. Cobra Automotive uses Dart blocks, except for their FIA legal engines. Given that I am never going to be FIA legal, what they do for regular vintage is good enough for me.

I have met the guy in charge of their engine shop and like him, a real nice guy. I lost his card and cannot recall his name. We have talked a few times at vintage races.

My engine builder made his suggestions, but has left all decisions up to me. I have done my research and made my decisions. At this point, I want an engine that I can count on to be reliable. The crank needed work and when I built my first engine I would have gone with a forged steel crank, but they were not available. If I waited any longer Scat would not have been able to do this one for quite a while as their supplies were drying up.

Jim

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Paul I dont know who owns the rights to the C6Fe casting . I would have thought it would be ford. Do you have any idea how Curt would of ended up owning the rights to the Ford C6FE castings? I believe tthe guy that does the cnc work is Mike Carlquest. I was under the impression he is the guy that does the engine work for Cobra automotive and the guy that was having the heads done. I could be wrong and be just spreading rumors. Anyhow i know he has a cnc program to do Gurney Eagle heads . He said he can pick up a lot of flow over the way they wer sold over the counter. He also did the small block ford head that was in the last engine masters that got 2 place.

That is an interesting story, Stuart. This is my understanding. When Ford pulled the plug on racing, they got rid of all the racing stuff, including designs, to Holman and Moody. The rights were transferred. They held onto the stuff for a while, but their business was waning as the oil embargo happened and with other economic impacts they began to auction some of it off. Curt bought the lot that contained the C6FE head designs/rights. By the way, this is the original GT40 head of yesteryear. The information is out there in the ether, and if you search around you will find it posted. I am sure that there are people on here that know much more about it, so they can chime in to make any corrections. Actually, I spoke with Curt a couple of hours ago. They do a run of ten or so sets every once in a while. Demand is low, due to the limited market, which makes them expensive. I am under the impression that this is the best Ford casting there is for the small blocks, but even ported it still pales in comparison to today's aftermarket aluminum heads.

Originally Posted by 1795

The engine builder was not trying to sell me on things that I did not need. When he had the engine disassembled he called me and had me come look at things. The block was going to need to be rebored and it was already .030 over; I did not want to risk going to .040 over as that starts to increase the risk of failure running at high rpms for extended periods as the water jackets get awful thin. It's one thing on a street engine or drag strip, but another thing on a road race engine. I do run our long sessions at times and that puts a stress on the engine.

Cobra Automotive (Curt Vogt) makes some nice engines, but at $30-$35 K they are a little out of my league, especially when after 20 hours you have to tear them down and replace parts. If it were a street engine that you probably would never tear down again, it's one thing, but every two years that is a lot of money.

I am trying to approximate what they do without the expense. Will not be at that level, but a little closer is good enough for me. Cobra Automotive uses Dart blocks, except for their FIA legal engines. Given that I am never going to be FIA legal, what they do for regular vintage is good enough for me.

I have met the guy in charge of their engine shop and like him, a real nice guy. I lost his card and cannot recall his name. We have talked a few times at vintage races.

My engine builder made his suggestions, but has left all decisions up to me. I have done my research and made my decisions. At this point, I want an engine that I can count on to be reliable. The crank needed work and when I built my first engine I would have gone with a forged steel crank, but they were not available. If I waited any longer Scat would not have been able to do this one for quite a while as their supplies were drying up.

Jim

John is the guy in charge of the engine shop at Cobra Automotive... very knowledgeable guy, and he seems very nice, as well! Forgot his last name.

Is Scat offset grinding a forged steel 302 crank for you, to get it destroked to 2.87", Jim? Why don't you go with a stroker unit now that you know they ran the larger displacement? Free cubes!

[FredG]

Did these old, stroked, high HP small blocks have 2 or 4 bolt mains?

Fred

[1795]

Paul,

Scat is grinding a crank. I am trying to stay within the rules and would have to prove that prior racers had stroked their engines, something that would be hard to do as not many people would admit to having stretched the rules previously.


Jim

[blykins]

Tied to FIA rules (.060” max overbore, factory heads, flat tappet cam, factory rockers, etc.), I can make 450 hp at 7000 and 390 lbft of torque. That is not a “max effort” build by any means. 11:1 compression, non aggressive cam lobes, easy stuff.

Given modern heads, roller cam, etc., 500 hp would be easy with a 289.

RPM is a friend for small displacement engines.

If you’re focused on streetable pieces, a 289 with aftermarket heads, dual plane intake, 9-9.5:1, small hydraulic roller, will make about 310-320 hp on the dyno here.

[MAStuart]

Paul thank for the answers. Sound reasonable about getting the stuff from H/M. Next time I talk to Mike I will have to ask about how he is involved with the C6FE heads.

Jim sounds like reasonable reason to be going with a new aftermarket blocks. I was just saying at your HP level i would not be worried about the block holding up. I think RPM International have forged steel 289 cranks for under $400. But they are meant for external balance. But some guys have internally balanced them.

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

Paul thank for the answers. Sound reasonable about getting the stuff from H/M. Next time I talk to Mike I will have to ask about how he is involved with the C6FE heads.

Jim sounds like reasonable reason to be going with a new aftermarket blocks. I was just saying at your HP level i would not be worried about the block holding up. I think RPM International have forged steel 289 cranks for under $400. But they are meant for external balance. But some guys have internally balanced them.

I may give Mike a call to see what porting he has available for the old castings... of which I have a pair.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by MAStuart

My 1964 Mickey Thompson catalog lists stroker cranks for 289's.

Jim did your engine builder put the scare on you to upgrade? Depending on your tune you would be fine up into the lower 500 Hp range. Now if you were going 24 hour racing.....get a better block. I have an Jan 67 hotrod artical on the gurney eagle engines. Dan said that they had made as much as 448Hp with 271 HP cast iron heads on a 325 inch engine. So they were making them big before 67! Also the big numbers were 506 HP from a 289 with the gurney eagle heads on gas with webers. So they were making big number way back before 67.

How did your engine look wheen they took it apart? Any problems? There is a guy out east that has a progam to cnc port 289 heads that guys have been making in the 425 to 450 range with. I think they are also remaking the C6FE heads and cnc porting them. There is nothing like a real 289 making big power. I really like them when they use a factory 289 block ,heads and crank. Yes with aftermarket blocks and heads and cranks they might make a little more power. But I dont think they are as cool.

If you can find a nice factory block, they would last at those levels all day long. Older blocks were much more stable/stout than the newer 302/5.0 blocks.

I put bronze lifter bore bushings in to put them to factory spec and also install billet main caps. I personally would have no issue running them up to .060" overbore. I also use a lot longer rod than what guys typically run, which requires a custom piston and rod setup.

RPM used to make steel 289 cranks but RPM quit making a lot of crankshafts last year because they didn't know what the tariffs would do.

A well ported 289 head will flow about 200-220 cfm, depending on the casting, while keeping the port volume in check. We convert them to 7mm or 5/16" valve stem size. That supports 450 hp easily.