S/C Fuel Filler fasteners

[Sal Gerace]

Does anyone know for certain how the filler caps were bolted down on original cars. I have seen hex style bolts on a few examples and also the recessed pan head slotted or phillips type bolts. What is correct or more correct?

[richsd]

This is a great question. First of all, the only thing that is for certain is that original cars used various methods to bolt down the filler cap and you have named them. Correct Cobra hardware up front (for example on the dash) must certainly be pan head slotted screws. This work was all done in England and a phillips head screw would not be used in England at the time. However, the filler caps were put on by Shelby so other types of screws were used. You will see some pictures of 3042 floating around with hex bolts however another common application for the filler cap was phillips head screws.

[Sal Gerace]

I have just viewed pictures of CSX3003 and that is why I decided to ask. This car also has the hex screws? I would love to know if the mounting plate on the filler of these cars has the recess in them for the bolts or not! I believe Dick Smith's car had the hex bolts too but I need to go back and check, Sal.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by richsd

However, the filler caps were put on by Shelby so other types of screws were used.

No.
Pictures of the Comp cars on the assembly line at AC show the filler caps installed.

I would say Hex heads are the way to go.

[Power Surge]

This is the problem with looking at original cars... most of them have been restored at some point.

I have pics of original cars that are supposed to be good examples of unmolested cars, but even if the car has been repainted, that could have warrented a bolt change. 3047 is a good example of a car that's pretty accurate still, but it WAS repainted and some things were changed from original on it. It does have hex head bolts for the filler though, AND the repaint was done OVER them. That could say that the hex were as that car came.

Dick Smith's car is not a good car to use for reference, as there's not much on it as it came from Shelby due to it's decades of racing use. The pics I have of that car, show allen head bolts.

3003 has hex bolts, but we know it's been molested. Even the clocking of the cap itself looks altered on that car.

3034 is a fairly unmolested car, and it's got hex head.

I would be interested to see what 3050 has, as in the pics recently posted it's hard to tell, but it also looks like hex head bolts (that were painted body color).

None of the other cars that I have pics of really tell anything, as they all have very altered pasts. But for what it's worth, they also all have hex heads. I don't actually have ANY pics of a car with anything other than hex heads.

I am sure Ron has much more insight on this.

[computerworks]

Sal..correct on 3050... hex heads, painted from that 'refresh coat'.

The same cap was used on a lot of other racecar applications... over the years, Cobras may have had them replaced with cap assemblies with slightly different configurations... but the vintage pics all point to plain ol' bolts and nuts.

[richsd]

Originally Posted by computerworks

No.
Pictures of the Comp cars on the assembly line at AC show the filler caps installed.

I would say Hex heads are the way to go.

Comp cars on the assembly line did have filler caps attached however these were unpainted cars. Various things happened during the process to complete these cars. As you mention some of the cars have paint on top of the bolts and in those cases it would be the case that the filler cap was not removed for paint. In most cases the filler cap was removed for paint and for some reason the bolts were often not used when putting the filler cap back on. In many of these cases phillips head screws were used instead. Again, the bottom line is that there is no one certain way that these cars were done originally and this is one example of that. As Sal mentions, during repainting a bolt change was done at times. But it is clear that the cars were not painted when arriving from AC and many of the cars had the bolt change right out of the starting gate. I have debated which way I would go with this item on my car and honestly have gone back and forth on the subject.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by richsd

As you mention some of the cars have paint on top of the bolts

No... in both cases, Sal and I talked only of two specific cars that are known to have been repainted years later.

Just curious... what did you put on your car, Rich?

[richsd]

Originally Posted by computerworks

No... in both cases, Sal and I talked of two specific cars that are known to have been repainted years later.

Just curious... what did you put on your car, Rich?

Yes I know those were also repainted later and are examples of cars that retained the bolts through the original paint job and through a repaint. What I am saying is that there are multiple paths depending on the car. Some retained the bolts through the first paint and subsequent, some retained the bolts through the first paint and lost them on a repaint, but many actually went to phillips head screws as the car was completed and painted for the first time.

I am actually going through some changes on my car in this exact area. I originally went with phillips head screws. I am just changing my filler cap from the chrome Enots to an NOS original Enots that has the duller finish instead of the more reflective chrome. As I am making this change I have been considering again the hex heads but have not yet sourced them. I guess I may end up with a car that took the opposite path with phillips heads originally and then a change to hex heads.

[Power Surge]

Well this discussion brings up an interesting point.... If the caps were installed at AC, but then also were removed in the US when the cars were painted, then what's really "correct"? If Shelby took the hex bolts out and replaced them with something else, then really EITHER fastener would be correct, be it from AC or SAI.

Personally, I don't think phillips is correct either way. My car has phillips on it right now from when it was originally built, but I plan to change that to hex head with thin washers underneath (also something I noticed on some originals).

[computerworks]

but many actually went to phillips head screws as the car was completed and painted for the first time.

Many, huh. O-K.


The very nice thing about building a replica is that...
...when there is ambiguity...you can't be wrong.

(I do think that the hex head bolt, actually ones with a thinner head-height are the most correct)

I think imagining that bolts were swapped when the car was painted at SAI is a bit of a stretch.

Rich ...NOS ain't NOS any more when you put a tool to it. In the box...it's NOS.

[richsd]

Yes a very interesting situation. It is very interesting to consider what is original in cases where original AC items were changed almost immediately. There will continue to be confusion on original certainty not only due to these type of situations but also of course since this was not an assembly line type car. In many cases, they put whatever they had on the car and did not care that it was not exactly the same as the previous cars built. I am probably with you that as I go through the filler cap change I will try to find the proper hex heads.

[Sal Gerace]

I talked to Mike McCluskey. The bolts that he said Shelby used were stainless steel hex heads. He says that Shelby probably bought surplus stainless steel aircraft hex head bolts and used them. He also suspects that they were "turned down a little" to give them a lower profile. He has seen the pan heads but says that they were bolts that were changed out by someone.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by Sal Gerace

I talked to Mike McCluskey. ... He says that Shelby probably bought surplus stainless steel aircraft hex head bolts and used them. He also suspects that they were "turned down a little" to give them a lower profile.

Originally Posted by computerworks

I do think that the hex head bolt, actually ones with a thinner head-height are the most correct...

Good question, Sal.....

[richsd]

Originally Posted by computerworks

I think imagining that bolts were swapped when the car was painted at SAI is a bit of a stretch.

Rich ...NOS ain't NOS any more when you put a tool to it. In the box...it's NOS.

Ron,

Imagining. Think again. My info on these cars comes directly from people that were there at the time working on Cobras and preparing comp cars for races. Additionally, they have done some of the best restorations and have collaborated directly with Brian Angliss on many projects. Although my knowledge on the Cobra is supplemented by published books, the people that interact with me on this have educated me far beyond the published accounts and photos. They lived these cars in the 60s and have huge stacks of photos that I have had the opportunity to look through. If you would prefer that I don't pass along what I learn from them that is beyond the pictures you guys have found in books then I will be happy stop posting.

And, yes, the cap has just been removed from the box, although it is more of a paper bag type thing than a box, and will soon no longer be NOS when the first screw goes through it.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by richsd

Imagining. Think again. My info on these cars comes directly from people that were there at the time working on Cobras and preparing comp cars for races. Additionally, they have done some of the best restorations and have collaborated directly with Brian Angliss on many projects. Although supplemented by books, the people that interact with me on this, lived these cars in the 60s and have huge stacks of photos that I have had the opportunity to look through. If you would prefer that I don't pass along what I learn from them that is beyond the pictures you guys have found in books then I will be happy stop posting.

Whoa... aren't you ticklish?

...don't confuse a knowledgeable discussion with a contest.

Do keep passing along what you have learned from whoever....
...that's how we all learn.

Not all these guys have a good memory...so the more opinions we get, the better.

[Sal Gerace]

Rich please don't stop the knowledge train! If if was not for the few of you guys on this forum we would never know what is right (if there is a right or wrong) or wrong or still sketchy. I along with many others here look forward to these discussions. We may never get these cars 100% right but a lot of the enjoyment is the research. I want you guys to know that I did not bait you with this topic, although it looks that way. I only spoke to Mike minutes after my initial posting on the topic. But I am leaning to the ss hex bolts!

[richsd]

Originally Posted by Sal Gerace

Rich please don't stop the knowledge train! If if was not for the few of you guys on this forum we would never know what is right (if there is a right or wrong) or wrong or still sketchy. I along with many others here look forward to these discussions. We may never get these cars 100% right but a lot of the enjoyment is the research. I want you guys to know that I did not bait you with this topic, although it looks that way. I only spoke to Mike minutes after my initial posting on the topic. But I am leaning to the ss hex bolts!

No as I said in my first post, this is a great question. I said that because it is a topic that I have presonally struggled with because of the various info on the subject. I still think it is a great question.

Ron, you are very right that not all these guys have a good memory. Actually probably all of them have very less than a good memory and why would they even have cared to note little details on these items back in 1966. Pictures are very helpful and my guy has a ton. Maybe sometime he will let me scan some of them and post. Very good discussion. The only thing that ticked me off is a suggestion of "imagining". I don't take my time here to post imaginations and if that is what they are taken for then I will stop wasting my time.

A side note on Mike McClusky. Great guy and definitely does great work however some of the things Mike does with cars have actually helped to create the redefined perspective of the Cobra instead of the original version of what the car was in the 60s. The more times the incorrect part is used on a replica or restoration the more people will begin to accept it as original. What then happens is that people start to look at correct originals and think they have the wrong parts on them. I know a number of owners of very correct originals and this is a frustration that they frequently have. Mike has been mentioned as contributing to this. I am sure that part of this situation is part availability so I certainly don't think tis is anything intentional.

[Rick Parker]

I think a similar design although in a gold dicromate plated grade 8 is used on current Fuel Cell cans.

[Sal Gerace]

I have also spoke with Paul Andrews who owns 3034 and has owned many other original cars. He only remembers seeing hex heads on the cars that he has owned or still owns. I always keep in the back of my mind that if anyone wanted to replace/use a bolt it would be a hex since it is the more common bolt to have around.