CA: New criminal cases filed

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by Morgester

Which leads me to my question, what is DMV doing with out-of-state SPCN emissions? All of this has been in play, it is just figuring out what is happening at ground level that is challenging.

Mr. Morgester, thank you again for your contributions to our forum.

To answer your question, it is clear to me that the CA DMV is taking legal out-of-state "1965 Ford" titles, verifying the VIN, and issuing legal "1965 Ford" CA titles, and using "1965" as the model year for emission requirements (ie: 1965 = smog exempt).

Originally Posted by vanoochka

They didn't require a smog test, and my California registration and title note that it is a 1965 model year....

[MaSnaka]

Sooooo...No SB100 required on those now legal 1965 CA titles?

[Igofastr]

Morgester,

If I interpret #3 above correctly, outside the SB100 process, new cars will no longer be allowed to title by year of the block or appearance of the car. In other words, other than through SB100, every single component car will have to meet modern (ie year of registration) smog standards. Is that a correct interpretation?

[Igofastr]

For the rest of you, it has always bothered me that somehow the BAR and DMV have somehow been empowered to make law...if they get to arbitrarily define what a law means, they are essentially making law.

[vanoochka]

Mr. Morgester,

Thanks for taking the time to provide the information. Here's some more from me:

While you were writing, I was at my local DMV office to begin the SB100 process for my car. Again, I caused quite a stir and - after waiting 45 minutes for them to complete their caucus - I was told my car doesn't even qualify for, nor does it require an SB100 # as it titled as a 1965 Ford.

Yikes!

By the way, I paid the state tax due on the full and actual purchase price when I registered the car - every penny.

Van

[jhv48]

In California, it's simple. With a SPCN Vehicle, the year it is first built and registered is the model year of the vehicle. If your car will not pass smog requirements for the year of construction, then you must apply for and receive an SB100 exemption in order to legally register the car.
Out of state cars, brought in to California and registered, are currently registered as the model year that the other state legally registered the vehicle. So you could have two identical cars, one brought in from another state and one constructed in california with different years attached to them. Who cares what vin number they choose to use. And your insurance company will insure it however they want to. It will still be covered if THEY make a mistake in classifying the vehicle.
That's one of the problems with the State. No continuity! Live with it and if buying an out of state car, its registration is going to be a part of your research. No one but an idiot is going to confuse your 1965 SPF Cobra for an original Shelby. Do your homework and there will be no problems.
Until California changes its laws we're beating a dead horse.

[Excaliber]

It appears Calif is working to close the '1965' out of state title 'loop hole'. While it may work for now, I doubt that will be the case down the road. There is some logic to closing the 'loop hole', as Mr. Morgester noted, 'hot rod' builders will simply move to an accomadting state, register their product as a '1965' or '1932' and thus avoid the Calif smog requirements.

It would seem a better approach would be for the State to simply recognize a way to 'deal with' the 'hot rods' IN State, similiar to what other States have done. Title washing should STILL remain illegal, lowering the real value, illegal. Letting people build hot rods, THATS what the State needs to focus on. 500 SB100 numbers is so low it will only compound the problems.

[Morgester]

Originally Posted by MaSnaka

Sooooo...No SB100 required on those now legal 1965 CA titles?

Again this is a DMV issue. For what it is worth I still recommend full disclosure and to make sure the vehicle was correctly registered in the "65 titling state."

In the Title Unlimited case, everyone lied about what the vehicle was, including in the original out-of-state registration. The key to this exception (if it exists) is that the true nature of the vehicle must be disclosed at the time of the original out-of-state registration and all the requirements for registration must be met. Usually requirement may include that the vehicle be physically present in the jurisdiction and that the registered owner be a resident of the state. If that state chooses to title it under their law as a 1965 then California has to deal with it under our statutes

Note that that there is a fraud exception to the “full faith” provision that allows DMV to reject title. So if you lie in the original title state, the title will not be valid here.

This is a hot button issue and I am sure that clarification, one way or the other will be forthcoming.

[CNGreen]

Mr. Morgester,

FWIW when you first started with this thread it was making the hair on my neck stand up...

I now understand where you are "coming from" and I for one really appreciate your input on these issues.

Thanks.

[Excaliber]

Yes, there was a LOT of clarification on these important issues, thanks a bunch Robert for working with us and keeping us informed!

[Bx1]

Originally Posted by vanoochka

Mr. Morgester,

Thanks for taking the time to provide the information. Here's some more from me:

While you were writing, I was at my local DMV office to begin the SB100 process for my car. Again, I caused quite a stir and - after waiting 45 minutes for them to complete their caucus - I was told my car doesn't even qualify for, nor does it require an SB100 # as it titled as a 1965 Ford.

Yikes!

By the way, I paid the state tax due on the full and actual purchase price when I registered the car - every penny.

Van

Very interesting... I reg. my Cobra as a 1965 Ford as that is what the previous owners had done... I paid ALL fees and TAXES In FULL I still plan to get the SB100 title next year. As of this moment I am reg. as a '65 Ford.
well, at least my car is...

[JohnWorthing848]

Originally posted by Morgester:
Note that that there is a fraud exception to the “full faith” provision that allows DMV to reject title. So if you lie in the original title state, the title will not be valid here.

This is exactly where this out of state transfer issue will always return.
When you are asked to fill in the year and make of your car on the CA registration and title application you have to be correct.

A Superformance titled in Ill as a 1965 Ford or Superformance Ford does not make it so. If it was built and completed in 2005 it is a 2005 Specially Constructed Vehicle in the eyes of CA DMV.

All of the good folks who wish to bring cars to CA need to understand this. And for those of us already in CA thank God for SB100.

I am willing to offer any support I can to help the lobbying effort to increase the number of exemptions certificates from 500 a year to ?????. This in combination with a workable amnesty is in the best interest of the hobby, and all of the honest hard working people who support it.

Best of luck!

John

PS: And thank you Mr. Morgester for your clarity.

[vanoochka]

Originally Posted by Bx1

Very interesting... I reg. my Cobra as a 1965 Ford as that is what the previous owners had done... I paid ALL fees and TAXES In FULL I still plan to get the SB100 title next year. As of this moment I am reg. as a '65 Ford.
well, at least my car is...

I'm sure there is a way to work around the DMV advice I was given. The lady at the DMV gave me a number to call in case I wanted to escalate the issue. That number was changed (in Sept 2005!) to a new number, and that number was only for questions on vanity plates. The voicemail message on the new number also gives an "866" number, but that rings busy, over and over.

I'm beginning to feel like a character in a Joseph Heller novel, but am determined to get my (previously legally registered as 1965 in Arizona) car a California SB 100 number, so Catch 22 here I come...

Van

[Excaliber]

If the car was originally titled as a 1965 under FRAUD conditions, simply changing the title to another persons name won't erase the original fraud. Which means, just because you currently have a '1965' Cobra, doesn't make it legal...

[kayakjack]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

If the car was originally titled as a 1965 under FRAUD conditions, simply changing the title to another persons name won't erase the original fraud. Which means, just because you currently have a '1965' Cobra, doesn't make it legal...

But if I understand what Morgester said, if a car was legally titled a 1965 in another state (e.g. - the state titles it as such because the car replicates a 1965), he currently does not have an issue with it if it is brought to California and titled the same. I believe his issue is with folks who use some sort of sham title company to help represent their car as something it is not. That sounds like fraud. I think it sounds like fraud to him. A couple of years ago I had a car offered to me. Very nice car. But the owner used one of these companies to get the VIN from a junked 1965 Ford. That is how he had it titled. He even had a VIN plate made to glue to the dash. He told me all of this. If I bought it, I guess I would now be party to the whole cock-and-bull story. I passed.

Jack

[xlr8or]

BX1,
I thought SB1578 is there to allow you to take a previously titled car and convert it to SPCN. Don't know if that is still valid but you might want to check into it.

[Randy Rosenberg]

Originally Posted by kayakjack

But if I understand what Morgester said, if a car was legally titled a 1965 in another state (e.g. - the state titles it as such because the car replicates a 1965), he currently does not have an issue with it if it is brought to California and titled the same...Jack

Please be careful not to confuse the CA AG's office with the DMV or the BAR - all three are separate government entities.

Morgester has made it clear that it is the DMV who determines model year, and the BAR will test to the smog requirements of the model year.

[Excaliber]

As it concerns fraud, if the car was originally titled incorrectly in another State (title washed, Titles Unlimited or other fraud) Calif has no obligation to honor what is all ready a bad title.

I would be VERY careful buying ANY car with a 1965 year on the title unless the HISTORY of that car can be adequatly traced back to it's origin.

For instance, I'm the third owner of my 'titled as 1965' ERA, but I have documentation tracing it from Hawaii, to Calif, to Texas to the manufacturer in 1986! It's a straight up and down deal in regards to the title, meeting every State requirement legally.

Does this mean I could legally register my ERA in California tommorow and be subject ONLY to 1965 smog laws? I think so, but the devil is in the details!

[vanoochka]

My car was legally titled in Arizona as a 1965 Ford. Clean. Documented. No fraud. It's SPF #237, so it's been around since 1999.

I've tangled with a couple of government agencies over the years, and both experiences were expensive and frustrating. In my experience, loopholes can become nooses without notice. So, I am going to grind my way through this SB100 process and not have to worry about my car's status.

On that topic, does anyone know of a SB100 savvy DMV location in Northern California? Mine is clueless.

[dlang14]

Van,

A lot of guys had good experiences at Santa Clara. I went to Gilroy where I live, they were clueless but got the job done. Perhaps someone who went to Santa Clara can give you a name to ask for.