Scratch builders

[Three Peaks]

Nick,
I don't have any real love for the Jag rear ends, so I'm going to try to use the T-bird IRS on this frame. I would like to see some drawings of the suspension pieces to see if it will marry up to the original style pieces, but I'm pretty sure I'll have to design new pieces to fit the original style frame to the T-bird knuckles.

Alex,
Thanks for the info- I didn't realize that Cobra Restorers had CAD's for the suspension pieces, only the frame. I will check with them once I have the frame here to look at and puzzle over. This won't be a full race car- possibly a few autocross events and informal club drag racing, but mostly street driving and cruising. Possibly a few car shows, depending on how the car comes out.

Keep the thread alive and we should be able to share ideas to get these things completed in our lifetimes- I hope!

Thanks again,
Bob

[Alex Evonosky]

Bob,
I believe you misunderstood. The Cobra Restorer drawings have all the necessary suspension bracket deminsions and pick up points shown. As I said, they do sell the original style upper and lower arms and parts if that was what you wanted to use. Even if they had the actual measurements of the suspension pieces, I would still buy my upper and lower control arms.
From my research and head scratching, MII had the best set up. Ford either did a lot of research and testing or as one article said they got lucky. As for rear ends, check out CWI. They make a IRS quick change.That is what I am looking at.

Cobracer

[Three Peaks]

Alex,

Thanks for the info- my poorly worded post also left out some information.
I'm looking to use the T-bird IRS in my build as I don't care for the Jag rear end. To this end, I need to fabricate some rear swing arms for the T-bird IRS and shock mounts, etc.... I need the original dimensions for a base line to design the new swing arms- upper and lower, but they will be substantially different than the Jag type swing arms. I'm aware the pick up points are on the drawings, but I need information on the suspension pieces to help me design these pieces.
Also, in the front I was wondering which A-arms would work with this set up and you've answered my question with the Mustang II information. Which units are you using? I've looked at the different units available on the different sites on the net and the list is endless. I would definitely like to use the adjustable uppers in the front and rear for camber/caster adjustment, but figuring out which ones to use is bewildering.

Sorry, I went back to your past posts and found the information on who to talk to.
Thanks again for your help.- Bob

[Alex Evonosky]

Bob,
Sorry for the late reply.
I have posted a few pictures in my gallery
Yes, you are correct, there are many produts to choose from as far as control arms.
I am no engineer and also sure there are lots of builders on here that are smarter than me.
As for the front control arms, I went with the Pole Position upper and lowers.
Part numbers are as follows:

Lower Left: 9300
Lower Right 9301
I will say that for my needs I did remove the shaft and machined some bushings so I could moune each side independently.
As for the uppers they are 9200RTF Pieces.
I ordered the 9200RTF but found that the welded threaded, shaft was at the wrong angle for my needs So I had Pole Position send me the parts and I will weld them to my needs.
Also, I used the 9200-27 adjusting sleeves for the front and 9200-23 for the back side. there again, I had to cut 1" off as they do not sell 7" sleeves.
As you can see, my project is nowhere near stock or simple.
I am sure there are others on this site that are building from scratch with more conventional parts which may be of more help.
I am also using himes instead if tie rod ends.
As for the rear, I am going to use the CWI quick change and will fabricate the needed brackets at that time.

Cobracer

[Three Peaks]

Alex, you have been very helpful and your pics are terrific. I don't see any upper shock mounts in your pics? Are you planning on fabbing something up later?
Are those Mustang II spindles you are using? They look awful familiar.

How about it guys, any other scratch builders out there willing to add to the database here?

Thanks,
Bob

[Alex Evonosky]

Bob,
Thank you for the compliment on the pictures!!
After I complete the other side, I will fabricate the skock mounts. First I have to finish the other side, complete the cross braces, then fab the shock mounts as they are reinforced back to the cross bracing.
Once my hard learned geomentry lesson is over, the rest will be pretty simple stuff.
As for the spindles, they are also from Pole Position.
Right side 9309
Left side 9302
Rotors are also Pole Postiton 9440 11" (same as Granada) with Ford bolt pattern.
The "only" reason the name Pole Position keeps coming up is that Ted spent lots of time answering questions and helping me over the phone so I went with them.
If I was building a more conventional set up I probably would be more help.
However, If you have any questions, I will try to help.
I am really suprised that some of the other builders have not supplied more information.
Thank you,

[Three Peaks]

Alex,
Right after posting I called Roger, the guy I bought the frame/body from and I found out he has a complete original style front suspension to fit my frame (or any original style frame- Kirkham, Shelby, etc...)
If the price is right, I might just have to go with his pieces as all I've heard is about how well the original front suspension handled. However, it also means I'm compelled to go pin drive as it is set up that way and isn't easy to change.

If it looks do-able, I'll try to share some pics and information when the time comes. I believe there is at least one other place I have heard of that makes the pieces for the original style front suspension. I'll be checking with them in a week or two when the frame is in my possession.
I also found a source for the aluminum pieces for these frames if you are interested. Let me know by e-mail and I'll try to pin the guy down on getting a set. However, his set is like the new Shelby sets- since the new Shelby continuation series comes with a fiberglass tub for the cockpit, those pieces aren't in the set and need to be fabricated separately.
Also, Grumpy has many of the original pieces for the car as well. They are in the process of setting up a web site as we speak, so many of the original pieces will be available again soon. - Bob

[mickmate]

Some great stuff, I see the upper control arm mounts slope up to get the height you need. I assume you're using MII specs. I was wondering if you had tried it for bump steer yet and how it was working, it sure looks good! The lower control arm mounts look virtually factory with those Pole Position arms. There are a few good resources out there for us, it is a dedicated bunch. One of the problems I find is it is easy to improve on many aspects and hard to stay original with the expense, availability, 60's performance when your done etc. We all figure out what works for us in the end.

[Alex Evonosky]

Ok,
Here are a few pictures of my scratch built front suspension.
If you are interested, I posted a few more in my gallery.

[Three Peaks]

Alex, it looks great. What program did you use to design the geometry check the bump steer? Are those the Pole Position pieces that you modified?
Are you using the original pick up points or did you redesign the mount points for your design?

Are those the Mustang II spindles? IMCA style or standard? Whose rotors are you using?

BTW, your workshop is WAAAAYYYYYY too clean! Love the rocking chair in the back ground. I keep thinking that is where you sit and think about the next step- when you're not on the computer in the background. - Bob

[mloy]

Yea, where the heck are all the metal shavings and tools lying around?!?!?

[Tongue Pirate]

Very Cool Alex!


The Rocking chair must be where he sleeps now. If I spent that much time in the garage I'd be told just to stay out there!

[alfy65]

Hey Alex...bout that chair.....................

[strictlypersonl]

Normally, I'd keep out of personal designs, but have you done any kind of stress analysis of the UCA under braking?

Hint: The high stress point is where the rear leg meets the top ball joint plate.

[Alex Evonosky]

Questions answered
Three Peaks: No program to design the geometry, just a lot of reading thinking and racing trial and error.
Yes, Pole Positon (parts are listed further back on this thread).
Mostly original pick up points
Shop too clean.. Usually try to keep things cleaned up somewhat. Makes the project run faster. I did however, just clean and mop.

Mloy: Metal shavings, I had plenty but try to keep ahead of it.
Probably could have bought a steak dinner if I had kept it LOL..

StrictlyPersonal: I would only think you are talking about the tack weld on the upper ball joint plate. That will be final welded along with several pieces on the frame. Plan is to complete the frame, take it off the jig, take it all apart, complete final touch up final welding, clean and pint. Sit in rockingchair, and start putting back together.
I am now concentrating on designing the rear end once I find the quick change I like.
Anyway, that is the plan.

[mickmate]

Hey Alex, looking good. You dodged a couple of questions, are they MII spindles, they look like it. With the rear end are you using original geometry independent rear with an upper and lower arm? Check that rear body width again mister. If I continued on the road you're on I was going to slice that rear deck and make it wider there. I have been making good progress on the rear suspension and a dash hoop. I'm inspired on dash hoop as I have a windscreen. I'll update a few tips, tricks and pics if anyone is interested. Hey Mark did you get that 289 body auction I sent ya? Bob (3peaks not P) what have you got figured on front suspension. I've been laying it out in AutocadLT2000, need to confirm a few more numbers. The age old question is the upright right ?!$

[Three Peaks]

Nick,
Still waiting on Grumpy to get back to me on the front suspension design. He offered me a couple options but hasn't come through with parts or drawings yet. Time will tell, but I might have to follow Alex's lead if I can't get him moving on the parts. He is also supposed to be designing the rear suspension for me also, but that is next rung down on the priority ladder at the moment.

Figured out a way to mount the T-bird IRS pumpkin finally, but will need to weld up some brackets once they are in their final resting place.
Just tonight I was cutting the engine perches to height and getting ready to cut the mounting plates. Just got my Poly motor mounts on Monday, so I'm getting my final measurements for the mounting holes and perch angles and going to weld up the pieces tomorrow.
Starting to move along nicely, but since I'm working in a small section of my garage it is pretty tight and the rainy weather has made it pretty tough to move a few things outside so I can get some things done.

Have you located a fuel tank yet? I bought an SPF tank from somebody on the forum here and there is another one available if you're interested. I think it holds 17 gallons and is brand new, he changed to a fuel cell.

Fabbed up my roll bar mount brackets, but have to have the hoops made up before I can mount them in the right places.

Have you posted some new pictures of your progress? I'm taking pics as I go along and will post a few in a couple days in my gallery.

Mick, is there any reason you can't design the suspension around the IMCA Mustang II front spindles? It just looks like it would eliminate a lot of problems- brakes are available, the spindles are easy to find (made new now by TIC in California), and all the parts are easy to find and cheap.

Have you gotten as far as the radiator and mounting system yet? Grumpy told me you can use the 69 Nova big block radiator and they are available for around $109 brand new. I'm always keeping my eyes open for deals.

Keep in touch guys, I need all the help I can get. - Bob

[John Boath]

Alex,

I don't think SP's concern was necessarily about the weld, but that the style of upper a-arm you are using usually has a much wider "foot-print" at the inboard mounts. The forward leg provides no resistance to forward-aft load, it's all carried by that weld on the rear leg.

[grumpy]

Bob aka 3peaks,

Since you discuss items openly across the board, you noted the upper suspension A-arm tabs are installed, and are the 38 mm openings for the AC cam supspension adjusters, that I understood.

Again, are the tabs for the lower suspension welded onto the chassis you have? If so are you willing to grind and cut them off on perfectly good fabricated CR design chassis just to relocate them. It will be good chore for a certified/or good welder. The holes will need to be drilled and aligned to install, or use a heavy duty right angle drill since they are 16mm bolts.

If the tabs are there, are they drilled or blank. If they drilled (620 mm apart should be the dimension) for stock AC?COBRA 427 lowers I would suggest that route be adhered to, and merely alter the uppers.

It's not a simple task to design the front geometry but to alter an existing chassis creates aother whole new scene. Information, information, ........

Are the old AC/COBRA steering brackets also per the CR design?, that will play against your geometry in the steeing and tab department, if you utilize them or are you go to use the maual rack we discussed.

Decisions, decisions, decisions...

Did you get the motor support brackets installed per the drawing I sent you or they way you were going?

grumpy

[Three Peaks]

Grumpy,
Ah-ha, there you are. I was thinking you gave up on me. I wasn't aware you needed more information or I would have certainly forwarded it to you.

I cut one of the motor mount pedestals yesterday to mount the top plate and did some measuring and realized this is going to make my oil pan hang approximately 3/4" below the frame rails using your measurments. Is this what you had in mind?

The suspension mounts are per the CR drawings (upper and lower) and all are drilled. Will you be able to design the suspension pieces around these points (they are drilled- 1 1/2" one side, 5/8" the other on each point) or am I going to need to relocate them for the suspension pieces? I can easily reconfigure the 1 1/2" holes as per our discussion to accomodate your adjustable arms.

The steering mounts are per CR also, and I had decided to use the ATSCO 6804 rack or the FR Cobra rack as per our discussion.
Is there any other information I can furnish to help you with your end?
Hope to hear from you soon- Thanks, Bob