CSX3016 for sale through Exotic Classics, Syosset NY

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Thor maine

My question is , when does a real genuine Shelby from the 60's stop being a real genuine Shelby from the 60's??? So say you have a real genuine Shelby from the 60's that has done a lot of racing. Ok so being a racer it does not have the original motor that being the nature of racing you change and destroy engines. and say that maybe the car has been in so much race action that very little of the original body is left. And say that we throw in a few major accidents and the main frame rail has been replaced and say while you are there you replace the other rail to with a thicker higher quality tubing and a lot of the suspension is replaced with higher quality pieces( Carroll Shelby said " Ac used a lot of pot metal". So is this car still a real genuine Shelby Cobra???

As I see it, we don't really know what it is. The problem is it's titled as "CSX3016" and as DMXF points out, the original 3016 is known and it's not this car.
That's how I see it now.
Larry

[labcars]

This is kinda like "When did you stop beating your wife?" Any acknowledgement or denial implies that at one time you were beating your wife. But, hey, I'm just dumb enough to take a stab at it!

Lots of words being used here, like "fake" and "fraud", etc., etc. The internet is a wonderful place. Whatever view one holds can be instantly corroborated by any number of sites/postings espousing the same view, without regard to facts.

I own (with two friends) this car, and was very much aware of all the speculation surrounding it when we bought it, particularly as its last owner wouldn't let anyone near the car to examine it. To say that he's eclectic is being kind. That said, since its purchase the car has been examined by several marque experts who, for the first time in over a decade have had the opportunity to crawl over and under the car in detail, and who have marveled at the existence of several comp car only bits/features which attest to the car's originality. Let's please remember that this was/is a race car. As a wise man once told me, you can own a perfect comp car without provenance, or a race car with stories, pick one. I've spoken to people who were at Watkins Glen when Bob Grossman put 3016 into a tree, as well as many others who point to specific elements of the car which mark it as "original". This car has been restored, although not to its Sebring livery, and been around for quite sometime.

Doubtless, DMXF knows more than me, as he seems well acquainted with the "original" owner who has somehow kept the remains of one of the twenty one comp cars buried in his back yard until recently to begin its restoration. This story is more believable because......?

I would invite anyone who knows the comp cars to inspect 3016 before forming such strident judgments. As in all things vehicular, the buyer should form their own view after the requisite diligence. No one is hiding the ball here, some preconceptions here notwithstanding.

Peace, out

[computerworks]

...for the first time in over a decade have had the opportunity to crawl over and under the car in detail, and who have marveled at the existence of several comp car only bits/features which attest to the car's originality.

I reviewed that car at SAAC-30 and did many photos of it.

I don't recall experiencing "marvel." I would be glad to examine it in it's current condition.

[rodneym]

I never knew of the controversy surrounding Anthony's Cobra

[1985 CCX]

What a show.....
Shame this car is what it is, still would fit nicely in my garage space.........

[DMXF]

labcars - I am sympathetic to your situation. The bottom line is significant evidence of the remains of the original car, along with affidavits and many witnesses provide overwhelming support for the unbroken history of it all the way back through Grossman. One long time Cobra aficionado in the Northeast even knew of the partial history for decades, but could never find where it went until the car was found and all the pieces came together.

The story provided to Ned years back that the car you own came from Grossman through Jim McCashin was debunked when Jim was contacted and said he never owned 3016. People involved with your car have said it was made from a car that used to be identified as 3106 until the real 3106 car/remains surfaced, at which point it was claimed that there was some kind of mistake and that your car was 3016. Lynn Park was even recently involved in communications where discussion of the real car being found was brought up and he had nothing to say. Just looking at configuration details of your car now doesn't reveal anything, as the people who have worked on it are quite knowledgeable and such attributes can easily be duplicated. A key aspect is that no valid traceability of any part or paperwork for your car has ever been shown to Cobra cognoscenti supporting the supposition that your car is related to the real 3016. I am sorry to hear that you have become involved in this situation and hope you can ultimately locate a buyer for what the car really is, which all indications and witnesses indicate is a late chassis number street 427 car.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by labcars

That said, since its purchase the car has been examined by several marque experts who, for the first time in over a decade have had the opportunity to crawl over and under the car in detail, and who have marveled at the existence of several comp car only bits/features which attest to the car's originality.

What are these "comp car only bits/features"?

I remember the owner of the Cobra restoration shop in Northern California that worked on my Kirkham pulled plenty of parts off the shelf to show me what original bits and pieces he could install on my car...for a price. And I took him up on some of it.

So, without knowing what these "bits/features" are, I'm not sure this means more than what's in the archives at SAAC HQ.

[DMXF]

BTW, some have taken the comment of the original car having been "unearthed" literally. It was not buried under ground, the term was just used as per the second definition shown in most dictionaries: 2. Discover (something hidden, lost, or kept secret) by investigation or searching: "unearth the truth".

[1985 CCX]

"I am under the impression that the original CSX3016 is here in the northeast, albeit not whole, but in storage. That is not a secret to everyone, especially those who also know the story. How can the Mecum sell this car as "The Original CSX3016" if there is strong evidence of the contrary? Seems to me that there is a ton of credibility at issue for their company. I really feel for the buyer if the car sells for real Cobra cash. The car is awesome regardless but if the question of originality can't be substantiated the dupe cant continue, can it? Just not fair to the other owner and the potential buyer as its just not right. It's a shot across the bow for all original cars in my humble opinion"

[mtml427]

Seems like Cobras are beginning to follow suit with Ferraris.
I have been looking at 3060 (1). Another case of an overactive imagination.
Perhaps the bidding will reflect the authenticity of this car.

[Dwight]

I clicked on the ad and it's listed as "sold"

Does anyone know the price it sold for?

Dwight

[SunDude]

Originally Posted by Dwight

I clicked on the ad and it's listed as "sold"

Does anyone know the price it sold for?

Dwight

Just guessing, but maybe they did that since the car is scheduled to be offered at Mecum Kissimmee next month.

[D-CEL]

Knowing the history, i would buy this car and proudly call it 3016
Race cars get beat, crashed and rebuilt its the nature of the beast.
I was a little disappointed when Anthony told me he had sold it as I always enjoyed seeing it being driven.
FYI it is at Mecum in Florida now and scheduled to go off at 3:15 on sat the 25th
I would bet the selling price reflects it as the Real1.......

Jason

[Nedsel]

D-CEL, you lost me at "knowing the history."

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

Knowing the history, i would buy this car and proudly call it 3016
Race cars get beat, crashed and rebuilt its the nature of the beast.
I was a little disappointed when Anthony told me he had sold it as I always enjoyed seeing it being driven.
FYI it is at Mecum in Florida now and scheduled to go off at 3:15 on sat the 25th
I would bet the selling price reflects it as the Real1.......

Jason

Some cars have a very clear history...



While others have a not so clear history...



I read the registry entry a few times and I don't understand it.

CSX3016:
- May have been converted into a stock car with a 1930's ford body
- May have had some of its parts sold to somebody including the front cross member with the shock tower that has the serial number stamped into it, but that someone has lost track of where those parts are, and they could be in some relative's garage.

And then there is a CSX32xx or CSX33xx street car that was restored to appear to like an early competition cobra with a new shock tower stamped either CSX3106 or CSX3016.

Is the car up for auction one of the above 3 possibilities? Or is it something else?

Then this thread also mentions a car with a clear title. Is that the stock car? Is that the parts lost in somebody's relatives's garage? Or None of the above?

[Nedsel]

The car at auction is the car formerly said to be 3106 with a fresh shock tower top installed bearing a CSX3016 VIN. The claimed existence of the other car, still carrying its shock tower, makes the originality of the shock tower on the auction car suspect. But the auction car was also reported to have started out as a 32xx or 33xx-numbered car, with added comp features. Now you know why it is unclear who is on first. And why anyone purchasing this car may encounter legal issues down the road.

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

The car at auction is the car formerly said to be 3106 with a fresh shock tower top installed bearing a CSX3016 VIN. The claimed existence of the other car, still carrying its shock tower, makes the originality of the shock tower on the auction car suspect. But the auction car was also reported to have started out as a 32xx or 33xx-numbered car, with added comp features. Now you know why it is unclear who is on first. And why anyone purchasing this car may encounter legal issues down the road.

So is the "other" (non-auction) car, the car converted to a stock car with a 1930's body or the misplaced parts in some relative's garage? Or is there yet a different story for the "other" car?

[Nedsel]

The "other car" is claimed to be the crashed Grossman car that was converted to a stock car using a late 30's Ford body on the 3016 chassis, and later dismantled. It is now said to be in pieces, but retaining the original chassis with the pieced-in right side main frame rail as a result of Grossman's wreck, as well as the numbered front crossmember. Problem is, the current location of this is only known to a small group of people and, thus far, they aren't talking. I would suggest to the person who claims to know about this car and who reads Club Cobra threads: it's time to fish or cut bait.

[Ron61]

If I had the money to purchase an original I would stay away from this one. For a Cobra that has the type of history this one has or doesn't have, it certainly does generate a lot of interest. I wish if someone really does still have most of the original frame and parts they would make it known.

Does anyone know if this car at auction has anything but the top of the shock tower with the 3016 vin? Per what our assistant state attorney general told me when I called him about it and asked him how anyone could register it in this state, they can't. I believe, and it has been some time ago that I called so I may be in error here, but I am almost positive he told me that one of the originals had to have at least 3 of the original pieces with the vin stamped into them and they supposedly have a person working for them that is an expert on where to look and what to look for. Any way it goes, if I had the money to buy an original, I wouldn't touch this one.

Ron

[1ntCobra]

Hmm... estimated selling price 1.9 to 2.4 million.

"It passed through different owners over several years, at one point even being temporarily mistitled as 3106 before corrected..."

1965 Shelby 427 Competition Cobra CSX3016, 1966 Sebring Class Winner for sale by Mecum Auction