clutch and engine trouble

shelby racer · #1 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 09:50 AM

Hey Gang,
it is me again. I thought I was going to be able to fire 4788 up last week end. Unfortunately the starter motor could not budge the motor. It turned manually with out a problem on the stand and I seem to remember no problem the last time I turned it in the car with the motor and tranny hooked up. I have tried a breaker bar and rocking it back and forth with a breaker bar with absolutely no luck.
I also have just discovereed that the hydraulic throw out / slave cylinder is not working. I get fluid out of the resevoir but not out of the master cylinder. I am in the process of trying to pull the master so I can check and see if I am getting fluid through the line from the resevoir to the master.
Any or all insight / advice / help will be appreciated.
Thanks, John(;-)
P.S. Is it my imaginagtion or do posts get deleted. I don't know about any one elses, but my threads on this forum are gone or not in the forum in their proper chronological place....

computerworks · #2 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

P.S. Is it my imaginagtion or do posts get deleted. I don't know about any one elses, but my threads on this forum are gone or not in the forum in their proper chronological place....

No, John. Normal posts and/or threads do not get deleted unless they violate our Terms.

Over the last year, though, we have had some server problems and, for one or two short periods of time, we operated on a backup server. A notice was posted that any postings on the backup server would not be transferred to the main system....maybe you had made a post during that window?

Click this link to show all the threads that you have started....

ron
ClubCobra Moderator

patrickt · #3 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

I have tried a breaker bar and rocking it back and forth with a breaker bar with absolutely no luck.

Not sure I completely understand your post. With the transmission in neutral can you turn the engine freely with a socket wrench or is the engine still "frozen?"

shelby racer · #4 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 08:39 PM

I can roll the car with the tranny in neutral, but the motor remain frozen - unable to be turned. Tried taking the plugs out (even though it is only a 10:1 motor - no effect. Pulled the inspection cover on the bell housing - everything looks okay.

CHANMADD · #5 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 09:42 PM

You probably have the motor hanging up on the clutch.Did the motor and tranny go in as one unit or was it a hassle "stabbing" the clutch when you put it in? Some times if you are installing the motor and it does not go easy youcan bend the clutch pkate and end up with a problem?

lineslinger · #6 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 09:45 PM

You have so many variables and unexplained conditions its hard to even begin to pinpoint whats up. What kind of gearbox, clutch, pressure plate, did you dial it in? 10:1 compression or less you would still have a hard time rolling it over under compression/plugs in.
Did you try to turn the motor over after the two were connected?
My first guess is the tranny and engine are not lined up, somehow
the connection between the two is binding, have you tried rolling it in gear?
This test alone would tell you a lot, did you try turning it over after you had the tranny connected. If it won't turn over while in gear the next move is to disconnect the two and then make sure the engine and transmission will operate freely independently , it doesn't take much in misalignment to lock the whole drive train up.

patrickt · #7 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHANMADD

You probably have the motor hanging up on the clutch.

I agree. If you pull the clutch off though and you still can't turn the engine with a wrench with the plugs out then you probably have a real problem. But before you pull the engine out of the car you could always cross your fingers and pull the starter motor hoping for the one in a million chance that it had seized up locking the flywheel.

blykins · #8 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 06:35 AM

What bellhousing/trans did you use?

For instance, if you used a TKO with a Lakewood without using a short input or a spacer plate, you could have jammed the input shaft up into the butt-end of the crankshaft, which pushes the crank up against the thrust bearing. With enough force back there (pulling in with the trans bolts) you could really foul the crankshaft against the bearing.

When installing a new engine/trans (with aftermarket parts), you should always measure the input shaft length from the flange and compare it to how much room you have between the bellhousing flange and the end of the pilot bushing/bearing. You should also turn the engine over and make sure it turns as free as it did with no trans bolted to it. In addition to that, I usually knock the trans out of gear and insert a slip yoke into the trans. With it out of gear, you should be able to turn the engine over by hand and hold the slip yoke without much drag whatsoever.

patrickt · #9 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 07:37 AM

Here is a shot of my TKO/Lakewood/FE that illustrates what Brent is talking about.

shelby racer · #10 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHANMADD

You probably have the motor hanging up on the clutch.Did the motor and tranny go in as one unit or was it a hassle "stabbing" the clutch when you put it in? Some times if you are installing the motor and it does not go easy youcan bend the clutch pkate and end up with a problem?

Thanks Chanmadd. It originally went in as a unit (with a top loader which had been odered for). Ot turns out that it was built for a tremmac 5spd. The tremmac went in fine. When it was at SAI in Las Vegas, the motor and tranny were in and out several times so I have no idea if any thing may have happened there, but I trust the guys to take good care of my car.

shelby racer · #11 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

What bellhousing/trans did you use?

For instance, if you used a TKO with a Lakewood without using a short input or a spacer plate, you could have jammed the input shaft up into the butt-end of the crankshaft, which pushes the crank up against the thrust bearing. With enough force back there (pulling in with the trans bolts) you could really foul the crankshaft against the bearing.

When installing a new engine/trans (with aftermarket parts), you should always measure the input shaft length from the flange and compare it to how much room you have between the bellhousing flange and the end of the pilot bushing/bearing. You should also turn the engine over and make sure it turns as free as it did with no trans bolted to it. In addition to that, I usually knock the trans out of gear and insert a slip yoke into the trans. With it out of gear, you should be able to turn the engine over by hand and hold the slip yoke without much drag whatsoever.

It is a tremmac that was specially built for this car by some one that has enough expeience with trannies that SAI has has him do jobs for them and is in the process of developing a new tranny package forthem. It rolls around the shop just fine in neutral.

patrickt · #12 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

...but I trust the guys to take good care of my car.

Was this the first time you tried to turn the engine over since it came back from them?

CHANMADD · #13 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 10:47 AM

When in nuetral the tranny and engine assembly are disconnected from the driveline.Try putting it in gear,get someone to sit in the car and depress the clutch,and see if the car still moves. Also try the same thing and see if the motor will turn with the clutch pushed in.

CHANMADD · #14 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 10:52 AM

Sorry my wife corrected my spelling of Neutral!

shelby racer · #15 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

Was this the first time you tried to turn the engine over since it came back from them?

Yes, this is the first time I have tried to turn it over since I got it back.

patrickt · #16 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

Yes, this is the first time I have tried to turn it over since I got it back.

I think the odds are pretty high that they did something wrong. How wrong you won't know until you start taking it apart.

I would call them up though and let them know what's going on since it appears to be their fault.

shelby racer · #17 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHANMADD

When in nuetral the tranny and engine assembly are disconnected from the driveline.Try putting it in gear,get someone to sit in the car and depress the clutch,and see if the car still moves. Also try the same thing and see if the motor will turn with the clutch pushed in.

Unfortunately I can not get the hydraulic slave cylinder / throw out bearing to work which is the other part ("clutch") that I was originally trying to figure out. I get fluid to and from the master cylinder (hours to get at and removed / check and reinstall) but I may not be getting enough since I can not get the slave to bleed. Therefore putting the clutch in withthe car in gear does not allow it to move

patrickt · #18 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

When it was at SAI in Las Vegas, the motor and tranny were in and out several times so I have no idea if any thing may have happened there, but I trust the guys to take good care of my car.

You would think that after yanking and replacing the motor and tranny "several times" they would have had the courtesy of starting it up once to make sure it ran before sending it back to you....

shelby racer · #19 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

I think the odds are pretty high that they did something wrong. How wrong you won't know until you start taking it apart.

I would call them up though and let them know what's going on since it appears to be their fault.

I don't want to jump to any conclusions. I did call and email SAI this week for advice, but did not hear anything back. I have more things to look at and investigate before I draw any conclusions. I also do not want to have to take the car back to vegas again considering the time and money it cost me last time when they had to fix the frame. The poor car has never run and was not ready to be run the last time it was in Vegas.

CHANMADD · #20 (**permalink**) 05-13-2007, 11:59 AM

In regards to bleeding your clutch. Some slave cylinders will eitheer have the bleed nipple on the top or the bottom.If it is on the top thats easy as the air in the cylinder will naturally go to the top and out the nipple.If its on the bottom you will have to dismount the cylinder turn it so the the nipple is up,push the piston all the way in and open nipple.Just let the fluid run out without pumping the pedal and it should be good.close the nipple and remount it.