4000 series hub / upright / spidle options

shelby racer · #1 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 11:15 AM

I just want to start this post off by saying that it is in no way meant to be a bash on SAI. I have gotten fantastic (beyond expectations) customer service and support from the new SAI. Now for the problem.
My car has about 400 miles on it and the upright / spindle is coming apart. The fasteners (which are behind the rotor and can therefore only be adjusted by taking the rotor off) are backing out (not just loose). Unfortunately, the only way to get the rotor off is to take the whole assembly off and press it off (per SAI). Not only is this going to be kind of expensive to do, but if I need to do a brake job in the future and replace or cut the rotor, I will have to do it again. The options that I see are:
1) suck it up and live with it
2) hope that SAI may come up with a solution before I have to do a brake job or deal with this again
3) replace the entire front suspension with one from another vendor like Kirkham
4) park it and hope for a better solution (or save some money to deal with it) in the future since I lost my job a month and a half ago - which is what I am planning on doing for now.
I can not believe that I am the first one who has ever had to deal with this problem so I am hoping there is another solutuion that I am unaware of. All input is welcome. Thanks.
John(;-)

patrickt · #2 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

My car has about 400 miles on it and the upright / spindle is coming apart. The fasteners (which are behind the rotor and can therefore only be adjusted by taking the rotor off) are backing out (not just loose).

Can you post a pic of your front spindle showing the fasteners? These are pin drive hubs, correct?

767Jockey · #3 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 12:07 PM

You can't just remove the caliper and take off the rotor and hub as an assembly?

patrickt · #4 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

You can't just remove the caliper and take off the rotor and hub as an assembly?

With only 400 miles on it I was thinking remove the entire spindle from the control arms and ship it all back (spindle, rotor, hat, hub, and caliper) to SAI and have them return it back good as new on their nickel. But I'd like to see a pic of it first.

767Jockey · #5 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrickt

With only 400 miles on it I was thinking remove the entire spindle from the control arms and ship it all back (spindle, rotor, hat, hub, and caliper) to SAI and have them return it back good as new on their nickel. But I'd like to see a pic of it first.

That works, too!

shelby racer · #6 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 12:46 PM

I just talked to a local shop that works on the first road going 4000 series (built in Las Vegas - unlike the 4700 series that was built else where). The original 4000 series is like a normal car. You remove the caliper and the rotor slips off the hub. My hub has the bolt on the back side and the rotor is pressed on to the hub. I have no idea why it was designed this way, but in my uneducated mind it seems like a step back ward. I will attempt to attatch an image and we can go from there. you can just see the bolts behind the rotor and you have to remove the entire assembly and press it off the up right.

patrickt · #7 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 12:52 PM

Ahh, I see. And presumably right below the line of sight on the rotor are fastemers going in to the block of aluminum that is bolted to the spindle. And the rotor is press-fitted on to the spindle using a billion pounds of force no doubt. Right?

767Jockey · #8 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

I just talked to a local shop that works on the first road going 4000 series (built in Las Vegas - unlike the 4700 series that was built else where). The original 4000 series is like a normal car. You remove the caliper and the rotor slips off the hub. My hub has the bolt on the back side and the rotor is pressed on to the hub. I have no idea why it was designed this way, but in my uneducated mind it seems like a step back ward. I will attempt to attatch an image and we can go from there. you can just see the bolts behind the rotor and you have to remove the entire assembly and press it off the up right.

The rotor and hub assembly is press fit onto the spindle? Again, I am no CSX guru by any means, but I have never heard of such an arrangement. It seems like a solution to a problem that no one has identified yet. Obviously, I am missing something here...is this car still under warranty? Tell them to recommend a shop by you and let them foot the bill if it's under warranty, why mess with it?

rokndad · #9 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

I just talked to a local shop that works on the first road going 4000 series (built in Las Vegas - unlike the 4700 series that was built else where).

There are several 4700 series Cobras that were fully built in Las Vegas from the ground up, like mine. I believe my front end looks different than yours, same caliper, but the rotor comes off like a typical front disc.

I think Ron(computerworks) did a comparison of the earlier front ends vs. the later ones with pictures side by side. Might have been the CAV cars only, I can't recall.

patrickt · #10 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 01:19 PM

So you would need something akin to a steering wheel puller to get your rotor and hub off. Huh. And then to put it back on what would you use? There's got to be an easier method -- no one would design it that way.

patrickt · #11 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 02:14 PM

Is there a castle nut and split pin on the end of the spindle?

shelby racer · #12 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 07:44 PM

I just went down and picked it up from the shop and trailered it home. I had to have it explained to me several times and then look at the assembly a bunch. The rotor bolts on to the back of a plate (kind of like a two piece rotor). The plate bolts on to the back (inner side) of the bub with the bolt heads being on the back side and the pins which ultimately hold the wheels in place capturing the bolts on the front (outer) side of the hub. The hub is held on to the upright by a nut on the back (inner) side of the up right. The nut sets the preload and I have been told draws the hub over a splined shaft. The up right has to be disconnected from the upper and lower control arms and the tie rod arm. The nut has to be removed and the bearings and hub have to be pressed off of the upright. If you don't press it off you can damage / flatten the bearings. Once you press the hub / bearing / plate and rotor off, you now have access to the fasteners and can machine the rotor if necessary. My mechanic also showed me that there is some slop / play in the hub right now, so we need to check to see if we can eliminate that with some more pre-load or if we need to change the bearings or if it is just a design problem. The original 4000 series had a relatively standard hub with a rotor that just slipped off once you removed the brake caliper. I am going to play with it some more tommorrow. I still wish some one could explain why the hub / rotor assembly was redesigned for the 4700 series from what the 3000 and 4000 series has.

patrickt · #13 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

The plate bolts on to the back (inner side) of the bub with the bolt heads being on the back side and the pins which ultimately hold the wheels in place capturing the bolts on the front (outer) side of the hub.

I see -- these are bolt on wheels, not pin-drives. Correct?

shelby racer · #14 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 08:01 PM

No, they are true knock offs - NOT bolt ons. The pins locate the wheels on the hub and the spinner locks the wheel to the hub. Sorry if I was unclear.

patrickt · #15 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

Sorry if I was unclear.

No problem. That is a complicated set up. I have no idea why it would be designed that way. It would seem to me though that with only 400 miles on the car that this should not end up coming out of your wallet.

shelby racer · #16 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rokndad

There are several 4700 series Cobras that were fully built in Las Vegas from the ground up, like mine. I believe my front end looks different than yours, same caliper, but the rotor comes off like a typical front disc.

I think Ron(computerworks) did a comparison of the earlier front ends vs. the later ones with pictures side by side. Might have been the CAV cars only, I can't recall.

mine is 4788 built by HST and when I talked to SAI they said that they currently did NOT have a fix or different parts to replace what I had that would solve the issue in the future. I still just don't get why they ever used this system in the fist place. I called Kirkham and they would have to sell me an entire front suspension (control arms, uprights, spindles, hubs, rotors, calipers and brake lines) for a good price (but still more than I have to spare right now).

patrickt · #17 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shelby racer

... when I talked to SAI they said that they currently did NOT have a fix or different parts to replace what I had that would solve the issue in the future.

That's absolute crap -- and it means my original suggestion of pulling it off the control arms and sending it all back to SAI won't work either. Isn't there a rep from Shelby that rears her head on this forum from time to time? Perhaps she could confirm that there is an inherent and, apparently, "unfixable" design flaw plaguing this series? I would be mad as a hornet....

Slither · #18 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 08:32 PM

I would let your dealer handle the situation!

shelby racer · #19 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 08:58 PM

I have spoken with Amy B who does monitor the forum occasionally and sometimes posts here (who has been a real friend and source of support for my cobra and 08 SGT-C mustang but who was unfortunately was not around when my cobra was being made or needed to be fixed the first time) and she asked Gary Davis who was the VP originally in charge of the cobras. What I have been told is that there is nothing available. My cobra is a problem child who I have had for 3 (?) years but only able to drive it for about a year (minus the 10 months down time to replace the original 66 Holman Moody side oiler that blew up a week after I finished my sb100 last april). It is well out of warrantee even if I only have 400 miles on it. The people at SAI have gone above and beyond as far as responsiveness is concerned and have always tried to help me out since Amy took over. Some of the people who were there before even tried to help me out even if it was not company policy then. I am shocked that I get almost immediate responses from Amy or Tony or Vince or Gary Patterson or any one else (if they are available). It didn't used to be this way but things have really changed. The people I have dealt with have always been great and now the company policy matches the attitude of the people. Even though it is out of warantee, they always help me if the request is reasonable. I had a problem with the header kit - they got me a new one and took the old one back - no questions. I am having a problem with my fuel pressure gauge - they offer tech support, but for now are not offering a new gauge (which is fair because we don't know what is wrong with it yet). I would honestly reccomend SAI as a company. My dealer on the other hand , not so much...... I don't know if any one has ever had the number of problems that I have with my cobra, but I also have a special relationship with all of my cars. My engine builder (who I would also highly reccomend) didn't believe me until he built the replacement for my 66 side oiler. I don't think that packing the parts off to Las Vegas is the solution since I will have the same problem in the future when I need to turn the rotors. If they had a proper replacement, I am sure they would be happy to take responsibility and send it to me. My car just had terrible build quality and no ever checked it before it was delivered to me. One of the many reasons I detest my dealer is because they claimed that pre-delivery inspection and fixes were some of the reasons why they were getting paid even though they never could give me info about my car as it was being built so I had to keep bothering poor Gary Patterson who always was friendly and tried to cheer me up. The old company didn't treat me right, the car I got was not great quality, but the new company exceeds my expectations and the people are still great - which is why I didn't want to turn this thread into a Shelby bashing session. One way or another I know they will help me out, I just don't know what the solution is or how long it will take. Right now, the cobra is sitting in the garage until I find a workable solution or find a job.

shelby racer · #20 (**permalink**) 03-17-2009, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slither

I would let your dealer handle the situation!

Yeah, I wish! My dealer was a worthless steaming pile of crap. NEVER could tell me over the two years it took to get the car delivered what was going on with it, promised me installed seat belts and batteries and other things which never appeared, charged me to pick the car up in texas and deliver it to california (even though they only ended up picking it up in Las vegas), charged me an additional fee to bring it from San Luis Obispo to Santa Cruz, never did a predelivery inspection / fix like they said they would (hose clamps on the fuel fill hose loose and floating around the day it was delivered and I am still finding loose bolts on the windshield support and roll bar and quick jacks this week .....), I had to tell them what options were available if it was not in their brochure, screwed up my order.... I shouldn't get started - it raises my blood pressure too much.