On the mixing of replicas with authentic old cars at concours

[LMH]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Of course. On the other hand, Ned would probably award a big fat trophy to any replica Cobra that could fool him in to thinking it's real. But he's a judge; a replica doesn't matter to him, nor should it. Instead, look at it from the gallery's perspective. Here, suppose I have three paintings on my wall: A Gaugin, a Renoir, and a van Gogh. And after you have been admiring them for a good ten minutes or so I tell you "Only one of them is real, the other two are fakes." Have I just: 1) Increased your viewing pleasure; 2) Diminished it; or 3) Made no change. Now don't just knee-jerk answer; think it through first.

Patrick, I think it would add to my viewing pleasure. That said, the replica wouldn't score points of course.
The gallery probably would like to see all of the paintings but where they are placed on the wall is your choice being that you are running the exhibit.

Now if I could build a replica Cobra that would fool Ned, then I would be ...!!!
Larry

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Historybuff

I broached this subject first on a forum but was shouted down because some owners of replicas want to be able to park wherever they want but there wasn't space enough for me to elaborate why I think they ought to be in a separate section. I found another forum where I could post an editorial
on that subject for those that are interested. At the next big SoCal concours, I'll see if the organizers agree with me or if it's "anything goes." Here's the site with the editorial.

Wally,

Instead of rewriting my original responses to your original thread, I'll just quote them here The first from your Dana Point thread:

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Wally,

As with each automobile group (like your old Ferrari haunts :doh: ) there are true enthusiasts, and then their are elitists like yourself. The difference being that one enjoys the car(s) for what they are, while the other feels that anything but "a concourse quality original" (heaven forbid you drive your car in the rain) lessens the vehicles in question. Thankfully, these days, we find less of an elitist attitude among owners (we do see more of an elitist attitude from non owners, which we find comical at best), at least in the Shelby circles where the cars are more geared towards their enthusiastic owners.


Just my two cents worth as a past and present multiple Shelby owner (real and replica alike).


Bill S.

Then in response to this particular thread/post on CC

Wally,

Since you were referring to my post on the other thread I thought I would interject a little more. based on your writings, both past and present, it is quite clear to me (and anyone else with half a brain) that you are indeed of the Elitist community. It is my understanding from speaking with others in the Ferrari circles out on the west coast that you started playing this style trump card with them back in the early 80's, saying anything built by Ferrari after 1976 should not be considered for a Concourse show. After you were removed from those circles (the full story is not known to me personally, so I'll leave that at that), you slid on over to the Cobras, and area in which you still do not understand (literally or figuratively) the mindset of their enthusiastic owners. Having lunch yesterday at the home of a CSX3000 owner (CSX3311 if you want to know) I can tell you they are gracious people, most original Shelby owners do not thumb their nose at the replicas and could care less whether they were parked in between them, or away from them (I can say I only know three such people, two of which own CSX4000 series continuation cars). They are the ones who's opinions matter when it comes to questions (or articles) like yours. They are the true enthusiasts who understand, while you are the outsider peering through that window just like Alice peered through the looking glass. One day you might take the time to look at it from their viewpoint, but until you do, just make sure to not place them all within the same sphere that you live in. For sadly, when that days comes, it will be the end of automobile collecting as we know it .


Some people get it, others do not. Enjoy your self induced 30 seconds of new found fame.

Bill S.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Here, suppose I have three paintings on my wall: A Gaugin, a Renoir, and a van Gogh. And after you have been admiring them for a good ten minutes or so I tell you "Only one of them is real, the other two are fakes." Have I just: 1) Increased your viewing pleasure; 2) Diminished it; or 3) Made no change. Now don't just knee-jerk answer; think it through first.

4) None of the above, because you would never find me in a museum and/or art gallery. That's an activity for the well-heeled rich folk like you.

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by LMH

Having competed in concourses with a Porsche in the 80's and early 90's, I don't see the issue here. Unlike a car show, a concourse is a competition on how close to original an original is.

You go to mall common area competitions?

" A concourse is a place where pathways or roads meet, such as in a hotel, a convention center, a railway station, an airport terminal, a hall, or other space."

Concours:

"A Concours d'Elegance (from French meaning a competition of elegance, lit. "concourse of elegance", referring to the gathering of prestigious cars) dates back to 17th Century French aristocracy, who paraded horse-drawn carriages in the parks of Paris during Summer weekends and holidays.[1] Over time, carriages became horseless and the gatherings became a competition among automobile owners to be judged on the appearance of their automobiles. These commonly are held at automobile shows or after racing competitions. Notable Concours d'Elegances include Concorso d'Eleganza Villa d'Este, Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance, Meadow Brook Concours d'Elegance, Amelia Island Concours d'Elegance, Ault Park Concours d'Elegance (Cincinnati), Keeneland Concours d'Elegance, and Louis Vuitton Classic in midtown Manhattan."

[LMH]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

4) None of the above, because you would never find me in a museum and/or art gallery. That's an activity for the well-heeled rich folk like you.

Rich... If I had five dollars, I'd sit up nights watching it!
Larry

[RACER X #99]

Coming next year to my area.

Pinehurst Concours d'Elegance | Pinehurst Concours d'Elegance

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Wally,


...most original Shelby owners do not thumb their nose at the replicas and could care less whether they were parked in between them, or away from them (I can say I only know three such people, two of which own CSX4000 series continuation cars). They are the ones who's opinions matter when it comes to questions (or articles) like yours. They are the true enthusiasts who understand, while you are the outsider peering through that window just like Alice peered through the looking glass. One day you might take the time to look at it from their viewpoint, but until you do, just make sure to not place them all within the same sphere that you live in. For sadly, when that days comes, it will be the end of automobile collecting as we know it .


Some people get it, others do not. Enjoy your self induced 30 seconds of new found fame.

Bill S.

Sorry, Bill, I must disagree. If a particular concours show represents that it features genuinely historic automobiles, then that is what they should present to the viewing public, who pay to see that which they have been promised. If you view the situation from the vantage point of the show organizers, your comment that it is the car owners whose opinions matter doesn't hold up. The show must set the criteria, and the entrants must adhere to them or find a different venue in which to participate. A show strictly for Jaguars, for example, would not permit an Austin Healey to enter just because the car's owner was of the opinion he should be allowed to. It has nothing to do with thumbing one's nose; it is simply a matter of adhering to criteria established by the show organizers rather than the car owners.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

is simply a matter of adhering to criteria established by the show organizers rather than the car owners.

I agree here 100%, but I am still amused at the non owners (like W.W.) who's nose is all out of joint when all he can do is spectate


Bill S.

[A-Snake]

Here is an example of the organizers criteria for an annual event in Kansas City. Art of the Car Concours® | Kansas City Art Institute

Art of the Car Concours® Criteria

The Art Of The Car Concours® is by invitation only. We invite those vehicles that we feel best exemplify a wide variety of representative vintage automobiles, trucks, motorcycles, and bicycles. Several factors are taken into consideration for accepting a vehicle for the Art Of The Car Concours®. The following information and guidelines will help clarify the consideration given to each vehicle.

Vehicles newer than 1976 are generally not considered for the Concours. Vehicles are to be ‘original’ in nature. They can be restored to original type configuration. Modified or restro-rods will not be accepted. Replicas, clones, and tributes of original vehicles will not be accepted.

Here is a list of examples of what would not be accepted. While not complete, it does provide some background.

• An original 1950 Mercury with a ’63 Chevy engine.
• A fiberglass or steel 1932 Ford replica.
• An original 1960 Austin Healey that has been customized with a custom interior, exterior or engine.
• A 1965 Mustang fastback modified to simulate a 1965 Shelby GT350

If you would like to have a vehicle considered, please observe the following steps:

1. No more than 160 automobiles and trucks will be selected. No more than 60 vintage motorcycles or bicycles will be selected. The earlier you submit your vehicle for consideration, the better. Individuals that wait until the deadline usually find the field has been set.

2. Submit three photos (one exterior, one interior, and one engine compartment). Motorcycles & bicycles only need two photos, one of each side. Due to the volume received, photos cannot be returned.

3. Include a brief history of the vehicle.

4. Your submission (photos and history) must be postmarked no later than April 1, 2011.

Photos and histories postmarked after April 1, 2011 will be held over and may be considered for future events.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

Here is an example of the organizers criteria for an annual event in Kansas City. Art of the Car Concours® | Kansas City Art Institute

That looks like a nice show, for a couple of reasons. 1) 160 is a nice size -- I'm thinking of one annual show that I attend, as a spectator, that is huge. There might be 100 or more Model T's all lined up in a row and, let's face it, after you've seen a couple of Model T's, that's quite enough.... The show is so big that it detracts from the enjoyment, IMO. 2) A well chosen, smaller, lot of cars is fun -- the diversity makes for the show. On the form I saw you could even show a bicycle (if invited). And yes, if the rules, up front, say you can't show a replica, then you shouldn't be able to show a replica. I have, from time to time, seen "drive ons" in shows like these. Where somebody will actually "crash the party' with their uninvited car. It takes a special type of person to do that....

[A-Snake]

There are several element that make AOTCC different. The goal is to not have multiples of the same
make or model of the same year. Makes are not displayed together. An early brass car might be next to '63 SWC. They are displayed so the public has a surprise in each row. There is no judging per-say. The public votes for the top five "People's Choice". Sponsors have their picks based on their own criteria. It still adds up to over 30 awards. The awards should not be 'store bought' trophies. Many are produced by students of the Art Institute. Ceramic dashboards and the like.

[1985 CCX]

Funny how this is even such an issue! Question? Topic of discussion? I want to enter my dog in a cat show.....

[Historybuff]

That question is so simple I am not sure if I understand it. So I'll reiterate why I brought the whole shebang up. In three weeks I will go to Pebble Beach for which entrance tickets for spectators are something like over $200.I expect to see original cars. No replicas. And Cobras are one of the honored marques so I especially expect diligence on the behalf of the acceptance committee there. Now I won't mind if a replica maker wants to buy space for a tent even on the grounds and show their replica as long as it's labeled a replica. In fact it would be a good idea for someone like Kirkham or Shelby's company.

Going from there to the lower cost concours, say like the $30-40 ones like Palos Verdes, I still hope that the acceptance committee will "hold the line" and separate the wheat from the chaff.

As far as the comment most people can tell the difference, let's go back to the letter about fake artwork. It is most embarrassing in the art community when someone who was touted as having authentic art is later unmasked as the owner of well-forged fakes. Muesum directors have been fired for not being diligent in this respect.

What show would I have no problem with their being replicas at? Any show that's free, like the many cars 'n coffee events, cruise nights, etc. After all, if you didn't pay to get in you have no cause for complaint. Even though the Concours on Rodeo was free, I thought it a great plus than most of the Cobras there were real ones, though there was one or two replicas.

Going back to the race car -from-a-street-car question, that's a valid question but I say, for instance, in Bruce Meyer's Cobra CSX2001, it has been a race car almost since new in several different guises/trims/styles, so when he had it restored he went with one of its several "looks" from its past and has lots of pictures to prove it looked like that when raced in Europe. I'd be less enthusiastic about a real CSX2000 or CSX3000-series Cobra that was built as a street car but is now being shown as a race car, but hey, it's still a Cobra and deserves to be out on the field. Hopefully the race car conversion took place back in the original Sixties eras but that doesn't matter so much as long as it's a real chassis number.

Going back to the Pantera example which no one mentioned, I don't think Panteras will ever be a big presence at concours because the owners don't want to switch back to the clunky parts they came with like the cast iron intake manifold, cast iron headers, inadequate carburetor etc. Those cars had to be modified just to make them work well, and the head space of those owners collectively is still inclinded more toward individual prefrerences than the way they came in '71-'74 (plus that brand is problematic, I was at the factory when I saw buyers of Euro. models pick and choose which
race car components they could have put on their brand new race cars. So those were factory done mods on street cars. Don't know how you would judge them at a concours.