On the mixing of replicas with authentic old cars at concours

[Historybuff]

I broached this subject first on a forum but was shouted down because some owners of replicas want to be able to park wherever they want but there wasn't space enough for me to elaborate why I think they ought to be in a separate section. I found another forum where I could post an editorial
on that subject for those that are interested. At the next big SoCal concours, I'll see if the organizers agree with me or if it's "anything goes." Here's the site with the editorial.

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[DougD]

It's not just the Cobras. This has been going on for a long time. Duesenbergs and other classics that have been rebodied are looked upon as being less desirable than an original car. Most makes don't enjoy the extensive documentation that SAAC and others have been keeping track of for decades, so it sometimes gets difficult to say what is or is not correct and authentic. At a concours, though, I feel that the cars should be authentic. There are plenty of car shows where an owner of a replica can display his or her car and enjoy it. Leave the concours to the authentic cars.

[hinoonaz]

Originals are Originals. Why not keep them seperate. As long as you are true to test of original or real. I think Utah makes the best, period. So put them in a class by themselves. The rest are fiberglass(most) and be in that category. So no continuation or replica flaming. IMO built in the 60's and then the others.

[Nedsel]

Wallace, I agree with you. But in defense of the La Jolla Concours, for which I serve on the organizing committee as well as a judge, I can tell you that there were NO replicas mixed in with the original cars on the show field. Which is to say, none of the cars eligible for judging were anything other than what they were stated to be. At this show, however, we do have a "car corral," in which a variety of cars participate. Within the corral there may well be replica automobiles. And if the owner of, say, a fiberglass M-B Gullwing reproduction wants too claim that his car is a "1955 Mercedes Benz" because SEMA and other organizations think this is acceptable, under the guise of labeling a car as that which it most closely resembles, well - I guess that's the owner's prerogative. I think you might be surprised at how many people at a show actually know the difference and simply accept the subterfuge as a common practice.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

I think you might be surprised at how many people at a show actually know the difference and simply accept the subterfuge as a common practice.

Yep. Because... if you know what is going on, then it doesn't matter. And if you don't know what is going on... then it doesn't matter.

[SunDude]

I gotta say, this really hasn't been a problem up here in the Nation's Capital as there are no original Cobras here to get in the way of our replicas.

But I am always amazed at how many visitors to the show have an uncle with an original Cobra at home in the garage... if only they could remember the chassis number... ;-)

[Nedsel]

[quote=SunDude;1201526

I am always amazed at how many visitors to the show have an uncle with an original Cobra at home in the garage... if only they could remember the chassis number... ;-)[/QUOTE]

Next time, bet them $100 that they are full of it. Then, if they get insulted and go bring back the chassis number, you have something to work with. That would be worth the $100.

[Silverback51]

Nope, does not matter what kit, replica, or continuation series it is. It's not an original and does not belong in the same area.

[Three Peaks]

Agreed, the replicas don't belong in the same area or classes as the originals. Isn't that the definition of a Concours?

On this note though, I would like to see classes set up at more historic races for replicas. It seems the originals are getting so valuable these days, fewer of them are being raced and the historic race fields are getting smaller each year.

Bob

[1985 CCX]

Let's face it CSX2000 is the original and the rest replicas of that car....

Just messing around, come on now!

Concourse events are for a car that is original and in the state it was from the factory. There are two divisions which allow for totally original cars and original cars with replicated parts. That said when we talk 1960's CSX2000, CSX3000 cars only they can be in concours and not even all of them qualify; replicas ERA, FFR EM CCX including MKIV and new Shelby's would not qualify. I am a replica owner and also realize that my investment is 10X less than that of an original car. There is a place for replicas its called a car show, cruise night or possibly popular vote class. Concours is for the real deal....... Not for 100% reproduction cars

Let the bell ring....

[mreid]

Why is this even a question?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by mreid

Why is this even a question?

Because the question is not "should it occur," but rather, if it does occur, and with the tacit approval of those who could, apparently, prevent it from occurring, but nevertheless choose not to, does it really matter, and if it does, why do they choose to sit idly by to begin with?

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Because the question is not "should it occur," but rather, if it does occur, and with the tacit approval of those who could, apparently, prevent it from occurring, but nevertheless choose not to, does it really matter, and if it does, why do they choose to sit idly by to begin with?

None of the concours events I am aware of encourage entrants with reproductions to enter them as historic cars, and many prohibit replicas altogether.

[sspano01]

well, i love my little replica - but it should not be in a concours judgement next to the real-deal. i'd be happy getting an award in a replica class.

[sspano01]

csx2000 being the real deal

[LMH]

Having competed in concourses with a Porsche in the 80's and early 90's, I don't see the issue here. Unlike a car show, a concourse is a competition on how close to original an original is. A replica would not be able to be competitive as it was never produced by the original factory, whatever make that would be. Points are deducted for repaint, new upholstery, missing tools ( I used to get dinged on that one) etc. So a replica would have no chance and the judges wouldn't be interested in judging it anyway.
Cars put for display only weren't judged, so they weren't in the same area as cars that were.
I think that's how it should be.
Larry

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by LMH

So a replica would have no chance and the judges wouldn't be interested in judging it anyway.

Of course. On the other hand, Ned would probably award a big fat trophy to any replica Cobra that could fool him in to thinking it's real. But he's a judge; a replica doesn't matter to him, nor should it. Instead, look at it from the gallery's perspective. Here, suppose I have three paintings on my wall: A Gaugin, a Renoir, and a van Gogh. And after you have been admiring them for a good ten minutes or so I tell you "Only one of them is real, the other two are fakes." Have I just: 1) Increased your viewing pleasure; 2) Diminished it; or 3) Made no change. Now don't just knee-jerk answer; think it through first.

[xb-60]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

....Concourse events are for a car that is original and in the state it was from the factory....

What if a CSX2xxx car was modified to a similar level to a factory racer (and raced, let's say, so it develops a different provenance).....how is it judged if presented at a concourse?
Not thinking of any particular car of course.
Cheers,
Glen

[Nedsel]

Originally Posted by xb-60

What if a CSX2xxx car was modified to a similar level to a factory racer (and raced, let's say, so it develops a different provenance).....how is it judged if presented at a concourse?
Not thinking of any particular car of course.
Cheers,
Glen

Glen, under the circumstances you describe, the car would be in the "race car" class rather than the "original as delivered/ street car" class, which would involve very different criteria.

[LMH]

Originally Posted by xb-60

What if a CSX2xxx car was modified to a similar level to a factory racer (and raced, let's say, so it develops a different provenance).....how is it judged if presented at a concourse?
Not thinking of any particular car of course.
Cheers,
Glen

I'm sure the powers that be in whatever event the car is entered do it differently but how the PCA handled it was that a factory race car would have scored more points than one modified by a private builder. Period mods would be worth more points than those done at a later date. That's how it was done when I was was involved in it.
Larry