Dragonsnakes now??

[PDHse]

Just wondering, do any of the surviving Dragonsnakes still have their original numbers and liveries on there body work? BTW check out my gallery.

[computerworks]

...CSX2427 does not.

[Cal Metal]

The most controversial of all the DragonSnakes, the infamous "Harr Ford" DS still has its original livery. This is one great car and the only 427 DS that has a significant history. I have a pic somewhere--somewhat obscure. I will try and get it to Ron to post.

Nice pic of Rich Mason's yellow DS, Ron.

[computerworks]

The Harr Ford Dragonsnake (red)...



and CSX2093...

[Buzz]

Cal, what sort of times and trap speeds did the 289 and 427 dragonsnakes post? How extensively were they modified?

[Cal Metal]

Depending on their factory options, they ran in a class which was then known as B/SP and A/SP, AA/SP and, perhaps, A/SP Modified, although I don't think that was an NHRA designation. This also varied from sanctioning body to sanctioning body, as well (NHRA v. AHRA). Because they were running stock class, the cars had to be fairly stock (factory RPO options) only. Back then cars were classed according to their weight (stock classes) and cubic inch displacement and advertised/factory h.p. If you ran a '55 Chev with a 327 that put you into a modified production class which was horrifically competitive. The reason was that the 327 wasn't a factory engine in '55 (nor was the 283 for that matter). Depending on the type of motor option you received from SAI, that would determine your position in Sport Production (in this case, A or B).

I will pull out some of the literature on this. They were real contenders and set many records in class, although I don't think they ever won a National eliminator title. The six NHRA divisions back then (some of you older drag racers help me out here) were Stock, Street, Super Stock, Competition, Super Eliminator, Top Gas (dragsters), Top Fuel. Funny cars came later 60s as did Pro Stock.

The Harr Ford 427 had a contentious history and if Ron can go back to the archives, I wrote a lengthy piece on that one that came from the Registry. My memory is not so great on this but I would suspect they ran in a stock class unless they moved into modified and that would have them in "Street" and that was a tough category to run in. Sorry for the rambling..............

[computerworks]

The Dragonsnakes had a nice thread back in April, 2001.

Due to the archive process, the individual posts don't show the author or the images anymore...but you can read the details...

Dragonsnake thread

[computerworks]

Here's the essence of Cal's prior post on the Harr Ford car...

"Ah...yes..CSX 3198. Purchased through Harr Motor Co. in Worcester, Mass. for their own use. Car came without color from AC and was later painted cranberry. With hard top and accessories the car ran over $10,000.

It had "shorty sidepipes", M & H slicks, 4.50 gears, Konis, etc.

Gus Zuidema, who was the Harr's performance service manager, drove the car in A/Sports/Modified with a 10.02 @ 146 mph.

A big controversy erupted between Carroll Shelby and Harr Ford when SAI would not back the 427 when it blew up in a subsequent race. Harr blamed SAI for not installing heavy duty connecting rods. Harr Ford must have had some clout as the controversy reached the office of Lee Iacocca. Harr threatened to sign off with his sales agreement with SAI. Larson Ford also said they would back Harr and also sign off.

It was later found out that Harr Ford had blown up a transmission and the engine had overwound. In a subsequent race, Zuidema missed three gears at the NHRA Winternationals and overwound the motor. Ford's rods were built for road racing and not drag racing.

Harr didn't care and said regardless of the incidents just mentioned, SAI was responsible for the motor. SAI agreed to pay $1,200 to Harr, although in the final analysis, Harr admitted they had been misinformed by their service people regarding the motor. As such, payment was held up and the funds were never sent to Harr Ford at that time; although, it was able to recoup the $1,200 because of the incentives SAI gave to Dragonsnakes that won national events.

Car was put for sale by Harr Ford in l966. Part of sales pitch was: Car hold both ends of National Record (A/SP, NHRA) Has won A/SP class everytime out. Won Street Eliminator 50% of total attempts.

Car has unusual history. Someone attempted to build a fake of it and peddle it in Japan. Based on a fiberglass kit car, no less. Supposedly rebuilt following a "wreck". "

[computerworks]

[computerworks]

One more...
(is this CSX2162?)

(..thanx to PDHse for leads on these two images)

[Great Asp]

Ron,

Do you know, or did he beat the tow truck that day?

Eric

[Cal Metal]

Ron:

Looks like the early Harr Ford DS was not as race prepped as its 427 brother. Note the use of street exhaust and wire wheels--no slicks-- for the strip...ouch!!!!

[PDHse]

Is the picture of the Harr Ford cobra a dragonsnake or a cobra 289?

[Cal Metal]

Paul brings up a good question. This was probably a 289 car running A/SP. One could probably argue that the only true Dragonsnakes were the Factory cars raced by the factory (I think there are only two) and those cars prepared by the Factory for customers. Some of cars were converted to drag cars without any kind of factory assistance, much like the independently prepared Comp. Cars used for road racing.

For example:

CSX 2019------Factory PR Dragonsnake
CSX 2093------Famous Costilow/Larson car. This was an independent car, non factory built, perhaps the most famous of all the DS cars. It is also the car Ed Hedrick bought (note Ron's pictures)


CSX 2248------Factory built for Customer (the El-Cid car)
CSX 2353------Independent (Siebens-Sidel car. Scant history)
CSX 2357------Factory car (second one built)
CSX 2427------Factory Prepared/independently campaigned. Currently owned by Rich Mason who owns CSX 2196 aka the Flip Top, Ken Miles car.

CSX 3198------Factory Prepared car for Harr Ford. Only 427 built.

I will have Ron post some history out of the Registry that was presented on a former post.

[computerworks]

Cal Metal posted...

The 'Dragonsnake' made its first appearence in the fall of 1963. Its first racing debut was at the NHRA Indy Nationals of that same year. That car, CSX 2019, was a dual quad version driven by Motor Trend Editor, Jim Wright. It was tuned by Louis Unser of Shelby's Racing Dept.

The idea for this car originated with SAI employees who thought that the Cobra could be a formidable strip winner. SAI supplied the car and they supplied the time and effort. The 'DS' became a model, available as a complete car at $8.250 FOB Venice, Cal. The first 'DS', originally painted red and later painted blue was used to develop drag race and acceleration packages that were made available to drag strip enthusiasts.

Four stages of the 'DS' were developed running all the way to the 380 hp/289 cid full comp. engine. The rearend ratio was 4:89.

Interestingly, SAI saw fit to homologate the engine package with NHRA. This was the 289cid/289 hp. version which ran dual quads using either Holleys or Carter AFBs (the 380 hp Weber version was only permitted to be run in AHRA). Interestingly, the paper work was filed for the 289/289 and this engine is still in the master "Bible" called the "Official Stock Car Classification Guide" at NHRA. The homologation issue is kind of a joke since 100 cars were never produced, either by the factory or independents.

American mags were the original wheels used on CSX 2019. Cure ride drag racing 90/10 uplock and 50/50 downlock shocks were used. the front end was modified to produce more favorable results by de-arching and lengthening the fromt spring and lengthening the rear spring. A fiberglas hardtop, hood scoop, radiused wheel openings and a dash mounted Sun Tach were installed. They also employed Belanger headers. Rear slicks were 8.00X15s. AHRA would allow 8.5 wheels but not NHRA. The hardtop, incidentally, listed for $229.00

The Snake decal that was used on the '69 Torino came from the 'DS'.

There were only two or three 'DS' sold as complete cars; most of them being privately and independently built and campaigned. They dominated the Sports Car classes in NHRA and AHRA.

CSX 2093, is the Larson/Costilow car you were asking about. It was the NHRA record holder in A,B,& C Sports Production. It has a distinguished race history.

An interesting postscipt to CSX 2093, is that once it took the record away from the factory 'DS', the quality of parts purchased from SAI were never quite the good as before, according to Larson. As a result, it became more difficult to keep the car competitive, having to deal with various problems such as twisted half shafts and broken rearends. It was because of that, that a decision to sell the car was made, and it changed hands in l966.

Ed Hedrick, however, continued to campaign the car and set numerous NHRA records up until l969.

[Hal Heindel]

Getting back to the beginning ("Just wondering, do any of the surviving Dragonsnakes still have their original numbers and liveries on their body work?") . . . I know of at least one that has, CSX2019, the first of the two factory Dragonsnakes. I bought that car back in 1967 from Randy Berry, who had bought it from Shelby, and it's still in original, unrestored condition with the factory paint and graphics.

Most of the stuff on this thread is on the money (especially the info posted by Cal Metal). One major exception: "American mags were the original wheels used on CSX 2019". Not so. It came with Halibrands. American mags were used on the second factory snake, CSX2357.

[wicked fast]

.....welcome to Club Cobra.

We greatly appreciate it when owners of original
Cobras join our group !!!

Time to ask for a favor already.

Please, please post a picture of your Dragonsnake !!!!

It is truly a piece of automotive history.

Cheers,
Bill Cook

[Hal Heindel]

Here is one. I'll try to take a few more this weekend. Incidentally, the Marsh 1/43 model is of the second DS, but it was a rush to see anybody offer a model Dragonsnake! Now if I can get Exoto to do a 1/18 version . . .

[Cal Metal]

WOW!!!! Thanks for posting Hal and a special welcome to Club Cobra. Neat, neat car!! You will have to give us some insight to the car and its racing history and your experiences. What a great find.

The original livery question can be found in some of the pics posted here. Some did change from owner to owner. The Costilow/Larson appears pretty original; the Harr Ford did change over time. One can see that from the pics posted here. Rich Mason's has a DS decal on the rear fender, but I have never seen a historical pic on this one. Rich has some interesting info on this one and maybe we can get him to post some pics of its early racing days.

[Blue66]

AWESOME guy's!!!!!