Le Mans Hard Top--Scarcity and Value

Cal Metal · #1 (**permalink**) 02-16-2003, 06:13 PM

This is one of those times when a component on a car takes on a serious dimension--more so than the value of the car. In this case, we are talking about what is believed to be the only surviving aluminum Le Mans Hardtop used by the SAI team in 1963. These cars were significant as they set the stage for further development at SAI. Curious, as they are peculiar, the '63 Le Mans Cobras are a signifcant part of the Cobra legend and the tops made them very distinctive.

Pictured below is maybe the only remaning aluminum top in existence from that era. There is rumor that one of the other two does exist but I have not seen proof of that.

This one belongs to Ernie Nagamatsu of Old Yeller fame. His Cobra is NOT a Le Mans car but one that was originally owned by Max Balchowsky. Ernie purchased this top from Benson Ford a number of years ago. The car and the rare top have been featured in AutoWeek "Escape Roads" section.

What say you? What kind of value is a top like this bring in a world of where uniqueness counts for everything. It is, afterall, one of a kind. Some of the '53 Corvettes had bubble tops that were not OEM and they bring $20K. No race history there and they made about fifteen, I think. Seems like this one should do a little better.

Excaliber · #2 (**permalink**) 02-16-2003, 08:06 PM

I'm guessing,,,,,,40 to 60K just for the top? Whadda you think?

Ernie

Cal Metal · #3 (**permalink**) 02-17-2003, 07:29 AM

Ernie:

Just throwing it out for speculation. I would think that would be a good number. If you have one of the original Le Mans cars, you are really wanting this top, as without it, the car isn't complete and keeps the value from being what it could be. A classic "whole is greater than the sum of its parts" kind of Gestalt thing.

Rich · #4 (**permalink**) 02-17-2003, 09:01 AM

2130, the Willment Lemans prototype, still has a top. I don't know if it's original or not. If so, I'm sure it's made of unobtainium.

Rich

prveqty · #5 (**permalink**) 02-22-2003, 03:50 PM

I think you guys are missing the boat as far as value of pieces like that, original Cobra owners tend to be the least concerned with originality of just about any vintage car out there. I think if someone had that top for sale, they would be lucky to get $10k for it, any higher and a potential buyer would simply pay McCluskey or someone to make it, I've seen it happen many times. I had the only known alum 390 block known to exist awhile back and Rich Mason only offered a few grand for it! Much of the notariety of the flip top is due to that engine and if any car were to have the value reduced because of a missing component, that's surely one - yet he could care less.

Cal Metal · #6 (**permalink**) 02-22-2003, 09:02 PM

I hate to burst your bubble (I was going to see how far the conversation would go on this) but he has been offered north of $50K for the top. If you have one of the other Le Mans cars, this is an integral piece of the puzzle; otherwise, you are always making apologies for your car.

As far as engines go, how does one document an original motor for something like the Flip Top. Is the motor indexed to the CSX VIN number? Ford didn't do that, although GM started it in 1959. If you don't have the original invoice on your CSX you will never know if the correct motor is in the car. Most don't have the invoice so the issue can't be proven or disproven, for that matter. The casting date means bupkis since it could have been one motor out of many.

BTW, the notoreity of the FT is with the design of the body which is totally unique to any Cobra and the connection to Ken Miles. The 390 is significant but to a lesser extent. If I were Rich, I would have someone cast an aluminum block (427) reconfigure it to 390 cid and slap on a '64 casting date. Done deal.

prveqty · #7 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 05:12 AM

Cal - I find that offer for the top VERY hard to believe, but will assume you've heard it from a good source (although good rational sources are close to impossible to find with these cars). On the alum 390, there were only 2 made according to Pete Brock, the technician at Ford who assembled them, and from a couple other sources, so trying to use the argument of whether it's the same block out of that car is a moot point (the other one was supposedly blown up).

prveqty · #8 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 05:54 AM

By the way, as another example of the lack of concern with originality, awhile back I was speaking with probably the most respected Cobra restorer whose name brings the highest resale (I won't reveal who) about 427 blocks, he asked if I had any spares. I said I knew where a couple may be, but they wouldn't be cheap since they had the correct early part numbers/date codes - his response was that he didn't care at all about original part numbers, etc, "only the kit car people worry about that". This is typical of the industry, where people want big bucks for their cars after "restoration", even though most of the car is reproduction or not correct.

Cal Metal · #9 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 06:18 AM

My source is very reliable. Regarding the 390 aluminum block, I know Rich Mason very well. If he passed on the purchase, it was for good reason. If he felt he couldn't establish authenticity, what would be the point? I guess chain of custody would be the issue.

On the engine originality issue, I would agree with you, in general, for most Cobras, that correct or period engines are not important. SAAC hardly endorses the issue.

prveqty · #10 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 08:11 AM

Authenticity of the block wasn't the issue, others that spoke with him about it said he just doesn't care about originality (he has many modifications to the car for racing). The engine examples, however, are representative of how most people involved with these cars feel about every component/part on them, who cares about originality? There's really just a handful of owners who appreciate originality on these. Now I can certainly understand restoration shops have to make a living and can't take the time it takes to ferret out every last original component, but if one of us were to carefully inspect most cars out there, instead of putting together a list of things that were NOT original on a particular car, it would be easier to put a list together of things that WERE original.....

Cal Metal · #11 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 08:25 AM

I will be talking with Rich next week to finalize the Monterey get together. I will ask about the above points that you just referenced and who contacted him about the engine and report back.

Thanks for the spirited discussion

Excaliber · #12 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 08:35 AM

Racers do seem to be less concerned than others about originality, but I would be surprised if most original owners felt that way.

I don't know! I would just assume because of the value of the cars one would be very careful about keeping the "details" accurate.

Motors are perhaps the one area where virtually anyone may make an exception, even with a very valuable car. It's not that uncommon to have the correct "type" of engine, but not the exact engine, in a rare car.

Looking forward to Cal's thoughts/research on this interesting issue as it applies to all aspects of the cars.

Ernie

prveqty · #13 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 08:51 AM

Cal - The engine thing has already been beat to death with Rich, Ron Butler,Dave Dralle and others spoke with him about it and many people, including Scudder, Serb and a host of others would have liked to have seen the engine in the car, but it was a lost cause. Rich was claiming he can't verify whether it was the exact engine that was in his car, but with only 2 made, what's the chance it's wrong and who cares given it's the aluminum 390??? The only other car that ran the alum 390 was 3002 (actually delivered with it), and the current owner of that car wasn't interested - I guess there's more rational there because it ran a cast iron block 427 most of the time Miles raced it. It's well known how pathetic the concern for originailty is on these cars - Cal, I'm glad to see your one of the guys, along with I, who cares about it....

Cal Metal · #14 (**permalink**) 02-23-2003, 10:43 AM

Ernie:

Keith Martin of Sports Car Market would be the person to ask that question. My general thinking with regards to SOME marques is that the greater the racing history of the car, the less important the issue of engine originality. The history speaks.

I think that the James Garner A.I.R. cars, the Grady Davis Gulf cars, and the Grand Sports (these all being Corvettes), have such a great provenance that the engine issue is of little consequence. However, with many of the Corvettes, particularly low option, significant cars (low production L 88, 89) it is very important.

Regarding other marques, I have not sure. Again, a good question for Keith Martin. It appears that with original Cobras, it doesn't appear to be a significant issue with race cars or production vehicles.

TERRY M KRYSTOFIAK · #15 (**permalink**) 02-26-2003, 11:25 PM

WHEN THE TOPIC OF THE 390 ENGINE FIRST APPEARED IN THE FORUM A YEAR OR SO AGO, I WAS THE ONE WHO BROUGHT IT TO THE ATTENTION OF RICH. WE DISCUSSED ITS POSSIBLE VALUE AT SOME LENGTH. WAS SURPRISED IT WAS MENTIONED HE OFFERED $2,000 FOR IT. WILL HAVE TO ASK HIM AT LUNCH THIS WEEK. I BELIEVE NED SCUTTER AND "THE GROUP" NEVER REALLY TRIED TO STEER HIM IN THAT DIRECTION, AS HE WOULD REALLY GIVE THERE THOUGHTS CAREFULL CONSIDERATION. THE THING IM TROUBLED ABOUT IS THE VALUE AS A BASE FOR MAYBE A COFFEE TABLE? IF THE VALUE IS WITH ITS HISTORY MAYBE IT SHOULD BE ON DISPLAY AT THE SHELBY MUSUEM IN COLORADO...HELL, MAY EVEN BE A TAX ADVANTAGE. AS SOME OWNERS OF CLASSIC CARS OFTEN SAY, "WE ARE ONLY KEEPING AND PRESERVING FOR THE NEXT GENERATION". AGAIN, AT LUNCH THIS FRIDAY, ILL GET MY MEMORY STRAIGHTENED OUT ON THE EVENTS AND REASONS.

Specialk · #16 (**permalink**) 02-27-2003, 05:49 AM

Is this one of those hardtops? What I mean is, this isn't a reproduction?

If it is, that was a pricey accident!

snakeeyes · #17 (**permalink**) 02-27-2003, 07:32 AM

That's one of them. That's Ernie Nagamatsu's car, shown after he had an accident on the main straight at the 2002 Monterey Historics. I believe that Ernie's hardtop came off of the Cobra that Dave MacDonald raced at Continental Divide Raceway. It was "sprung" in the accident at Laguna, unfortunately, but like the rest of the car I'm sure Ernie will do what it takes to have it look like it did before the wreck. Ernie is a true enthusiast and a great ambassador for the sport.

TERRY M KRYSTOFIAK · #18 (**permalink**) 02-27-2003, 07:22 PM

CAL,
SPOKE TO RICH TODAY. HE MENTIONED THAT THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE HAVE TRIED TO SELL HIM THE "ORGINAL ?" 390 ALUM. BLOCK. HIS DOCUMENTATION FROM CORESPONDANCE FROM FORD TO SHELBY WAS FOR A NUMBER OF "EXPERIMENTAL" ENGINES. THE AL BLOCK BECAME THE FIRST CHOICE...SO IT SEEMS. WITH MORE ENGINES FOR SALE THAN WERE SUBPOSE TO HAVE BEEN PRODUCED, ID BE ALITTLE WORRIED OF WHAT IS REAL AND WHOM IM DEALING WITH. THE BEST ANSEWER IS TO WALK AWAY AND NOT PURCHASE A MAYBE. WHILE A POINT WAS MADE THAT RACERS ARE NOT "CONCERNED" WITH ORGINALALITY, VINTAGE RACERS, FOR THE MOST PART, ARE QUITE CONCERNED. MOST HAVE THE ORGINAL ENGINES SETTING IN A CRADLE. IM PART OF THAT BREED AS THE ORGINAL 289 IN MY GT350 SITS COVERED, WITH THE TRACK ENGINE INSTALED. AWHILE BACK I WAS TALKING TO STUART HALL WHO IS ON PAR WITH MCCLUSKY. HE RESTORED MY OLD CSX2192 AND THAT ENGINE IS IN A CRADLE! BY THE WAY, HE'S RESTORING THE DAYTONA THAT SOLD AT MONTEREY FOR 4MIL. ANYWAY, WHENEVER THERE IS A CLOUD OF CERTANTY, IT WILL HARDLY EVER GO AWAY.
BY THE WAY, WHERE DID WE STAY IN MONTEREY (SALINAS)?

snakeeyes · #19 (**permalink**) 02-28-2003, 08:09 AM

One of the two Best Westerns. Both were on the same street; ours was the one at the very end...

I think this was it:

http://www.pricerighthotels.com/hote.../ca/usa/36796/

PDHse · #20 (**permalink**) 02-28-2003, 11:31 AM

Another shot of Ernie Nagamatsu,s cobra, this time at Goodwood a couple of years ago