FIA Homologation Papers

[PatBuckley]

Not being one to enjoy being at too much of a disadvantage, I did equip the current ride with a 482 cubic inch aluminum block - with aluminum heads, manifold, water pump, etc - which puts it a bit below an iron small block as far as engine weight - another thing to consider is the decided mid- front engine layout these cars have which tends to make the polar moment thing sound good but is actually not as important an issue as we are led to believe, IMO....now if the lump was sitting in front of the front axle that would be a bad thing indeed.

Needless to say, throttle control is one of the more important facets of learning to drive a car like this.....that along with self control.

[bbrown]

Thomas,

Greetings. Got the new diff in 007 last week.

However, more to the point, I spoke with Frankie Monise this morning and he told me that they didn't have any homologation papers when they prepared the 427 Cobras for Europe. They bought a comp car from Shelby which they naturally assumed would meet the required specifications. The street car was simply prepared as a "T" car, that is commonly referred to as a "training" car. This car would be driven on the circuit for familiarization laps and not raced. Frankie said they did not prepare the street car to full comp specs.

Sorry no homologation papers. I would call ACCUS. Last time I talked to Birdie Martin he was quite helpful. They should be available for a copying fee.

Best regards
Bert Brown

[What'saCobra?]

Engine sounds nice. Why Shelby?

You will find it weighs about the weight of an iron sb with alloy heads. Of course, an aly sb would be perhaps 90 #'s lighter, or so.

And don't forget the juge iron diff, to be replaced with Kirkhams aly unit, which is much better engineered.

The huge iron FE lumps with iron heads have a much higher moment than the sb's, which is one of the reasons they turn-in better on mickey mouse road courses and are easier to catch when starting to rotate out of shape...

FIA homo docs for 427: has anyone ever seen them?

[Byots]

nm .

[Byots]

nm .

[nikbj68]

Hi Byots. Was that due to the carb setup change that put the 289`s without 4 Webers into B production rather than A, or where they running full Webers?

[Byots]

nm .

[Byots]

nm .

[Byots]

nm .

[nikbj68]

Great Pics, BYOTS! Now this is the REAL stuff that the Cobra legend should be based on!

[Jamo]

Hmmmm....go figure....a pig 427 doing things like that.

Having driven all over lovely England and Wales, I think I could sum up exactly what every mile of roadway must be like in the Kingdom as well as someone driving a few of the great interstates or desert roadways here in the States could describe all of the roads here.

I'm still trying to find straights longer than a few hundred yards here in the Sierra Nevadas that sit ten miles from my doorstep, or along the length of our lengthy coastline. All in all, I find California to be on par with England/Wales in roadway conditions/diversity. For every circle we lack, we have ten times as many on and off ramps to our freeways. You know...California...the REAL birthplace of the Cobras...SB and BB.

Obviously, Tom and David are interested in what fits best in England and places south, and it may be that folks used to putting Rover V8s, Chevy SB and even (gawd help us) V6s into their DAX et al., reproductions would favor a Ford SB in a full busted body style rather than the flat chested Twiggy look. Having paid the gas taxes at the pump in England, I would personally be thinking about a nice turbo diesel if that was the moving criteria for deciding how to power my Cobra there.

Many of us...more and more each day...no longer listen to the rather moot issue of engine weight when fitting BBs to our 427 body styles...the Shelby aluminum block and fitments simply push those arguments back to interesting period history. The low weight of the SB has been achieved with the suspension of the upgraded 427.

But hey, if the Boys from Provo can sell more arruminum 427s with SB motor mounts for those that might enjoy a sunny day in the Cotswolds...go for it.

[Trevor Legate]

So thats sorted then - I'll open a Cobra dealership in the Cotswolds!! You knock 'em out, Kirkhams, I'll flog 'em to the happy punters. Dream on....

I may stop short of dropping in a turbo diesel. That may be a step too far, even though it has a certain logic. The diesel from the new Audi A8 would be impressive tho.

I have seen 427's raced in the UK, usually at Brands Hatch, and they have not been very successful, although that could be down to the driver. I have only ever seen one 427 driven properly and that was at the hillclimb near Carson City when Dick Smith simply blitzed all the Ferraris, Porsches etc. Never seen a 427 go round a corner on the limit before and it was a sight and sound I'll never forget! So, yes, a properly sorted 427 driven by someone who knows how its done is a formidable combination. But like all the truly fast race cars they do demand a degree of skill.

I believe that Sam won the SCCA championship in 1973, if my fading memory serves.....a long time after the car should have been retired. Wonderful!

[What'saCobra?]

Jamo is exactly right.

And i look forward with great anticipation to seeing the FIA homo papers on the 427 from Byots. If they exist at all, they are certainly not in GT Production, where the 289 races in Historic FIA even today. They might be in FIA Group 4, Sports.*

We have already noted that they ran in Sports, against GT40's, Porche 904's, Ferrari LM's, Chapparals and such, where they had no chance unless somebody broke. They were, however, fiercely driven.

Please note, that Trev and i are not proposing leaf srung chassis, far from it. Personally, i think the FIA cars are going to turn out to be fairly dead end once people drive them a bit...

We are proposing coil springing with ultra light weight and sb power. The argument is certainly not here and the discussion is certainly not over regarding sb and bb. Unfortunately, not everyone can afford an aly bb from Shelby. And the majority of kits use an iron slug that is, if not at least impossible to handle correctly, might make the kit quite unsafe when combined with cheap kit components required by excessive motor investment. We are proposing reason in exchange for excellent handling. But, in the spirit of honest inquiry, let's chat a bit about the results of 1965 for fun, AS IF we were proposing sb leaf-sprung cars as faster than 427's in the day.

Byots has selected only the professional races from 1965. OK, let's start there.

1965 was a long year for Shelby American. In May, FOMOCO informed SA that no further funds would come from them for 289 Cobra racing or development, so they were on their own. FORD had wiped the GT Production class and SCCA A Production to anihilation and wanted to move on to win Le Mans. So, there was little more development on 289's.

FORD did, however, continue to support the 427 versions (after all, FORD had just paid for the new chassis development), some with engines, some with other support (driver salaries, expenses, parts, stuff). As a result, the quickest professional drivers bailed and otherwise left the 289's to flounder (except the Daytonas) and migrated to the now supported (funded) 427's.

To say that the 427 teams were independent, while literally true in some cases, belies the fact that they were paid professionals, now driving 427's and acting in FORD's interests.

For example, Skip Scott, who won three (half) of the races you cite: Pensacola, Watkins Glenn and Continental Divide was a paid driver recruited by Essex Wire to build a FORD Racing Team. FOMOCO was Essex's largest customer and they wanted to promote their customer as a winner and themselves as FORD's specialist supplier. Independent doesn't quite tell the whole story, does it? Just where do you think Essex got the funds for that team?

PS, Scott had already driven for Shelby in a GT40 in 1964's Times GP race, as a paid driver. Shelby recommended Scott to Essex.

The other three races you cite (the other half), Bridgehampton (May and September) and Road America (Sept) were won by Dr. Dick Thompson (a dentist?), surely a paid professional who was also to co-drive with Scott at the 1966 Daytona in a GT40, both as paid professionals.

So, the six races you cite, wherein the heavily-funded (not true) 289's team raced against the poor little old independents (that WERE factory funded), were won by two drivers, both of which were paid professionals, as they all were in the professional races. OK, they won those races, but...

What about the other pro races where the 427's DNF'd, like Riverside, where they both failed, the Governor's Trophy and the Nassau Trophy where they also DNF'd and were trounced by 289's?

Anyway, the professional race record between the two cars does show the 427 as the quicker on some long tracks, despite the magnet in its nose. (They likely went quicker on North-bound headings.) And it couldn't catch the Daytona's, either, but that is a longer story, isn't it?

Meanwhile, the results of SCCA racing between the 289 and the 427 are even less clear, since the 289 was stripped of the 75HP from the Webers removal and FORD abandoned the 289's into B Production. Of course, the 427's were quicker against the 200 less HP 289's. But, there is a nice story here, also.

So, although i was going to lay in the weeds with this little vignette for later, you will be now aware why FORD was happy with the change and even, some say, proposed it; however indirectly, to the SCCA.

There were two reason's the Webers were removed. Just consider the position of Chevrolet, if SCCA allowed them to remain. Then FORD would have TWO different Cobras whipping Buttinskis in A Production, rather than just the Cobra 427! AND, FORD didn't want the FORD 289's pushing any FORD 427's into the weeds at Thompson and LimeRock, did they? AND, it wasn't possible to let the 289's into B Production with the Webers, since they would always win, every race, against the 327 'Vettes and Jags, so SCCA followed the nice script and dumped the 715 CFM Holley back on the 289's, to everyone's dismay in my crowd at the time.

PS: FORD was also happy to have their GT350's have at least a CHANCE to win a given B Production race, as the fastbacks were GT Production cars and the notchbacks were GT Sedans in FIA (like the FIA 911's, can you believe?)

Anyway, we were talking about today's few really sweet street cars, not professional results from 1965. But, it is always interesting to reacquaint one's self with the facts from time to time and choose to argue uphill.


-------------------------
*Shelby's Wildlife, Wallace Wyss, 1977, Revised Edition, Motorsports, p211.

[Jamo]

Trever...Dick Smith lives right here in Fresno. I know him pretty well. I dare say he could make even a little 289 perform like a REAL Cobra if he had a mind to do so.

What'saMatterYou....if I'm right, then it is only due to the fact that I take the same position as Mr. Buckley...a noteworthy scholar of driving skills from open-wheeled formula conveyances to rally transports, and the builder of some fine reproduction Cobras. Out here in REAGAN Country, we drive them there big badassed big motored Shelbys just so we can keep them damn freeways dusted off with them sidepipes...we don't get the rain nor do we have the cadre of civil servants to sweep off the roads as they do in Merry Olde, thereby making huge pulses of power unnecessary.

You pointed out the one loss of power by going to Shelby's arruminum block...they go slightly slower than they used to when headed north.

We can only wonder where the development of Cobras would be had Ford not called Shelby in to take over the GT40 program...proper suspension work on the 289s and 427 Daytonas???

As Mr. Buckley noted...it's all good.

[Byots]

nm .

[Byots]

nm .

[Tom Kirkham]

Before we right off the big heavy cast iron lump, with heavy cast iron heads... I recall a Mac Archer in his 427 Cobra starting from the back pass all of the Weber carbed 289s, all the Corvetts, and even pass a Ferrari 250 LM (driven by Rob Walton) at the last corner to win. I believe this was two years ago at Monterey Historics.

[Jamo]

Well...if ya want to get technical, Dick Smith ("Smitty") had ol 198 running right up front with the GT40s and and some Ferraris at the Historics last August with an old iron block with two sleeved cylinders (fresh rebuild that Boghosian had just finished for him the week before) before he blew an oil line (probably a couple of decades old!) and took himself and the Fliptop out for the day. Boghosian was gonna kill him last I heard.

[Turk]

So 427 it IS.

TURK

[PatBuckley]

Except on a tight smooth track.

They make nice drivers, too.