FIA Homologation Papers

[Tom Kirkham]

Does anyone have a copy of the FIA homologation papers for the 260, 289, and 427 Cobras? How do they compare to the SCCA?

[csx2300]

yes. extremely stringent.

[Tom Kirkham]

How does one get a copy of the FIA papers?

[What'saCobra?]

i don't believe that the FIA papers were ever completed for the 427, old boy.

Ford, by that time in 1965/6, was bored with Shelby's fussing around with that no longer useful 427 engine, since NASCAR had ruled it illegal. They told him to fugetaboutit and concentrate on the le Mans GT 40 team he was allowed to manage. They went out of production and as you know, old Shel' started sliding the cheaper and klunkier Police Interceptor 428's into the 427 chassis, with no notice to customers of these street cars. Truth in advertising? Scam? Screwing? You pays your money and takes your choice.

So, the 427 racecars were not and are not legal in most of EU events even today, since most of races are FIA homologated (certified), if that is the best word for it. There are almost no 427 racecars in Europe, for this reason. A few non-FIA club events will let them run in a few funny classes (several dragsters exist), but any regular historic event will not allow them, because they are not FIA homologated.

In the day, a few were raced in events as a courtesy and because of the intended paperwork applications, but it never happened, ImHO.

But, the FIA does police a fairly level playing field, which is the useful point to compeditors. For instance, Steve Hitchens, one of the better 289 racers from England, had an inportant race win taken away from him when they discovered he was using a newer 302 block for his car, although it was destroked to 289 and only used 2 bolt main caps. His protests that 289's blocks are "not available" was ignored, as it would be here, because it is not true, in fact. Maybe not easy to get a nice block, unmolested, but the FIA will not protest a resleaved block, for instance, so if i recall exactly or not, he lost the Championship that year because of this FIA catch-out, which is only right.

Keep up the great work...

Are you fellows thinking about Trevor's 289 Sports?

[What'saCobra?]

OOps! Resleaved = resleeved!

[Tom Kirkham]

Actually CSX3019 and CSX3020 were taken to LeMans as back up cars to the GT40s. Of course the GT40s had no problems that year and the Cobras were sent home with out racing. I was told the cars were homologated with 427 aluminum medium riser heads, dry sump, and a single four carb.

[Tom Kirkham]

I am afraid that I do not know about Trevor's 289 Sports. However, it sounds like a great idea

[csx2300]

i have only FIA for daytona coupes and replicas built on orig 289s, have never seen 427s. i can fax if u pass me fax #.

[csx2300]

i have my hands on #3020, but no papers. but now that u mention it, we will try and chase down.

[Tom Kirkham]

Thank you very much, the fax number at the shop is 801-377-8224.

[What'saCobra?]

289 Sports
Well, Trevor thinks, and he is far from alone on this, that the availability of a Kirkham 289 Sports would be a seller in Europe and i think it would be superfine here. Light weight, SB engine, upgraded engineering from your wonderful parts bin, handling champion, ...well, you get the idea. We have been yaking about it on another thread.

427 Cobra FIA homologation
i should have been more precise. The 427 was never homologated in the GT category, because not enough cars were proved manufactured to the FIA's satisfaction, to qualify for the 100 minimum limit, in 1965 or 1966.

(Very long story here about not only the Cobra 427, but also the Ferrari LM, which they tried to palm off to the FIA as a "re-engined" 250GT, both of which had too few copies at the time. Although by 1967 there certainly were enough 427/8 cars made, but FORD had withdrawn their money from the Cobras in 1965, so CS wasn't going to pay for it and no euroweenie stepped up to the plate to pay for the FIA homologation of an uncompeditive car either.)

So, if FORD were going to run the 427 Cobra at Le Mans as a back up in 1965 or 1966, they would have had to run in Sports Car (sort of like prototype or modified) category, which allowed almost unlimited mods and upgrades to cars, where in larger engines were not a problem. For instance, this is were the Chapparal's ran.

The 427 Cobra in Europe would have had to run against McLarens, Chapparal's, Porche 904's, and of course the far better aerodynamic GT40's. After all, even here in the USA, the SCCA homologation was not complete in 1965, so they also had to run in Sports Car in USRRC, rather than GT.

But, i could see that the team might want to fill an entry, if enough cars crashed in practice, just to baby one for 24 hours and finish, even in the Sports Car class. Sort of a back up to the back up sort of thing. The le Mans Club de l'Ouest has always been pretty unpredictable, perhaps it might have floated.

So, it may be that papers exist for the 427's in FIA's Sports Car class...but, the cars would have had no chance at winning, since they would have been completely outclassed.

i have never heard of anyone that claimed such papers existed...but that isn't exact proof they aren't around somewhere is it?

Good luck on your search, i hope they exist somewhere and please post them if you find them.

[Trevor Legate]

Just a thought......

CSX 3019 completed a full season in Europe in 1966, racing at the Nurburgring 1000K (against the GT40s - I have photos to prove my claim - see next book!) and also at Spa and the Targa Florio where it naturally crashed. Whip out your Shelby Registry at once. Driver was the American lawyer Ed Freutel, so anyone connected with his crazy effort must have, or seen, copies of some kind of FIA papers?

(It was one of the 2, 427s he took to Europe, one as a spare and sold to John Woolfe via John Tojeiro and it was the spare, 3167, that set the acceleration records made famous in the Guiness Book of World Records. 3019 ended up in the hands of Brian Angliss.....)

Thomas:
We have been debating the merits of the over-looked AC289 Sports that was a very desirable Cobra. I encountered one of the very few Shelby 427S/C's in the UK yesterday and I know why the AC289 is the best of the bunch....in my humble etc

[Trevor Legate]

Thomas:

I have to say that the new FIA Historic proposals make interesting reading and may just clear up some of the worst of the 'grey' areas!! The idea of a 'pedigree' document to go with the technical papers will help a lot. Too many of the cars out there have some very creative documentation. Lets just race 'period' cars and stop pretending.......dare I say that the future looks bright?

[What'saCobra?]

We agree that the 427's would have run in with the Chapparal's and GT40's. Seen the photos. We agree that a few ran in Europe. Seen the photos. The question is on what, if any, homopaper.

Of course, the FIA ought to have copies of any 427 they homologated in the day, no matter what the class. Do we wish to raise this issue with them?

The USAAC races here were FIA events (all or mostly) because they were pan-American and the 427 ran them also in the "unlimited" sports racing class, again because the homopapers were not finished in 1965. (You will remember that was the source of the big stink from SCCA, when some of their precious drivers chose to ignore the SCCA ban on FIA /professional racing at the USAAC events and risked their SCCA "amateur" status. Amateur SCCA was the right word, seems to me.)

Is it just possible that FIA papers were not necessary for that class and only an FIA tech inspection was enough for an FIA driver/entrant? This doesn't seem like the usual way of FIA overcontroling things and seems antithical to the normal FIA/French authoritarianism regarding all things automotive, maritime and aviation, but maybe it's so?

Seems more and more likely that there is paper somewhere. There is something to this issue and it evades me to recall or find exactly what happened. Perhaps we have been wrong about this particular item all these years? Although again, it would not be compeditive in the Sports Car class, particularly today. (And FIA papers are quite unnecessary here in the USA, as the SCCA papers were filed in the day and the car is still compeditive in its class as pre-1966 A Production. Ask Bill Murray.)

Thomas has asked a good question and we are flailing about without an adequate and precise answer. But, logic hints at paper.

Anyone?

[nikbj68]

I prefer pasteurised to homologated, especially on cornflakes.

[PatBuckley]

Flailing about sums it up well.

[Turk]

Pat,
What does that mean?

TURK
Always trying to better my language skills. I'm lost on that one!

[nikbj68]

Turk. .... to move energetically in an uncontrolled way
possibly aimed at me? Apologies
To contribute something useful (for a change) here`s a link to the FiA rules on Historic Racing that Trevor was mentioning earlier.Really exciting news for the Kirkhams and anyone else creating faithful replicas of Historic vehicles!

[What'saCobra?]

Thanks for that reference, Nik. Very helpful and informative.

[Trevor Legate]

Thanks Nik - I was so busy writing my reply, I forgot to post the link!! What would I do without you?