FIA Homologation Papers

[nikbj68]

...not find S/C`s living 12 miles from you?

[Tom Kirkham]

Trevor,

Sorry to have dropped out of sight, I just got back from a Boy Scout camp. Have any papers shown up yet? Also where is the thread on the 289 Sports?

[What'saCobra?]

TK
It's entitled "Seeking an AC 289". David is likely subscribed, you might ask him.

The concept of the 289 sports was excellent and it was/is a great driver, like the Lightweights. Only you'se guys could do it justice.

Another lengthy thread is called "What is the differance between a AC cobra & an SC Cobra", despite the spelling error.

While it makes only fleeting reference to the MKIV Lightweights, it is rather pointed a few times in it's history lessons and you might find it interesting.

Good thing on the Boy Scouts duty, old boy.

Condolances on the mutual loss of our dear President Reagan.

[Trevor Legate]

Hi Tom

Just to echo the above comments from our learned colleague Monsieur Whatsa.

We have been agreeing to agree that the nicest DRIVERS car of the whole GENUINE Cobra production run was the AC289 MkIII of Thames Ditton fame, that only 2 Americans were clued up enough to place an order for prior to their going extinct in 1968. The combination of the body style, with the narrower rear bodywork and a 4.7 litre lump was just right and, in my view, the model that might find fresh acceptance in the UK and Europe. But, to confirm the comment above, it needs a company of your ability to re-create it properly. ( Tho I recall making these observations during our chat in Essen just over 12 months ago!)

In my opinion, of course, the FIA model is just as desirable and your MkII threatens to be just wonderful as well. Maybe you have that market covered already. Bring on the new stuff.....??

[nikbj68]

...In a vain attempt to add something again, here`s a lnik to The seeking AC289 thread and the "What`s the difference between an AC & SC Cobra?" thread
regards,Nik.

[PatBuckley]

Stay the course, Tom.

As we have discussed, many state that they want a 289 but few actually put the cash down for one.

As to what is a nicer "driver" - I am sure that a small block is a nicer driver but you guys don't seem to quite get it, do you?

People buy BMW's and such if they want a nice "driver" - a Cobra is and hopefully will always be the kind of car that is loud, obnoxious and too fast. The need to be a nice "driver" is not required, IMO.

Pat Buckley

[Tom Kirkham]

Thank you for your nice words. We are currently making two hybrid type cars. Not quite a COB car but close. Currenlty we have both a 289 street car body and an FIA body on coil spring chassis. We have sold a few but I am not sure it is worth tooling up for completly new rear fenders. I have a friend of mine who owns (at last count) four of the narrow hip cars. But the reason he bought narrow hip cars was because we were making the wide hip cars, so I am not sure he would be too happy letting us copy his rear fender flairs. But as they say money talks... It would of course be a special order car.

[bbrown]

Greetings Trevor,

Maybe a few days late, but to answer your question about Ed Freutel's effort with the 427 Cobras in Europe, I do know the people connected with this "crazy" effort. The cars were prepared in a little shop in Pasadena CA and shipped to Europe. One was a street car, the other a comp. They were prepared in Frank Monise's shop. Frank was a long time Cal Club member that started racing about 1950 in Jags and continued up to the nineties in various Lotuses (or Loti?). During his prime he was a damn good shoe. He was a long time friend of Ed and Frank travelled to Europe with the cars. His son, Frankie, remembers helping prepare the cars, getting parts from Shelby American, etc. In fact, he got to drive the street car to high school on several occasions. I'll have to check with Frankie to see if they actually built them to FIA homologation sheets or just used available parts.

If you are including a section about these cars in your next book, I invite you to correspond directly with the people involved. Frank would get livid when he read a magazine article about those cars because no one got the story right, and yet in the 35+ years since those cars ran, no one ever contacted him.

Bert Brown
Danville CA

[What'saCobra?]

"... you guys don't seem to quite get it, do you?"

Excuse me?

i am not quite so sure i understand what you are getting so tight about or either that i don't comprehend what you claim we don't "get".

If you mean to infer that ALL Cobras were 427's you surely know you are in serious denial about the far more 289's, not even mentioning the 427's that never were 427's but actually 428's. (Part of Shel's truth in advertizing campaign?)

If you mean the 427's were quicker on the track than the 289's, you should explain why the SCCA required the 289's to remove their Weber carbs and drop back into B production, so they wouldn't continue to harass (and pass) the A production 427 Vettes and 427 Cobras everywhere but Daytona and Sebring...

If you mean plastic copy cars, which are not real Shelby or AC Cobras, of course, that 's a different matter altogether and you may well be correct that most have very large (and very heavy) engines, even occasionally genuine 427's, but must often some sort of 428/385 series or something. Actually, about half of the plastic fantastics have never been completed, so it's hard to measure what people intended to do before they ran out of money, skill, plans and ideas all at the same time...

i don't think the small block cars were particularly unobnoxious, or unexciting, at least not to Corvettes and GTO's that encountered them in the 60's and 70's and had their buttinskis wiped. Many sb cars had great sound, but it's true that very few 289's had side pipes, and most that did were genuine race cars or certainly seriously evented.

i don't seem to recall them being quiet or subdued, but sounding pretty nice turning 7000 rpm in even high gear on street/race engines. i used to run a twin side-piped (Belangers) hot 289 on the street, with no baffles, and it was great and seriously wild.

But, then i grew up.

Seriously, what prompts you to pisour on someone else's parade, just like you harassed my good friend Nik about our "flailing around"? TK asked a very good question about which it is not so easy to get together a precise answer. Perhaps you have some information or insight about the FIA documentation of 427's you would like to contribute to the discussion? Perhaps you raced them in Europe at the time?

Why would you get tight about Trevor's experience and thoughts? i suspect he has driven more real Cobras than myself and i would imagine that qualifies him at least as an experienced opinioner.

You must certainly recognize that his street car is one of the best handling and driving toys ever built and that also forms the basis of some of his opinion. i am sure you have inquired as to what he drives, right? He deserves some gracious space for his views and doesn't need either your brow-beating big block bluster or even my justifications of his experience. Read the book.

Neither he or i would tell any 3rd party to ignore or discount your views. Even still. i thought this was an open forum. Of course, if you are now Tom's Director of Marketing you have a responsibility to tell him that these idea's are not in K company's interests, but i would then wonder why you would use this public forum with which to lend your instructions to his ear.

More likely, TK can form his own investment decisions, but is uncommonly interested in various views. Somehow, i find it hard to believe he needs a gate-keeper. How many other real Cobra Engineer types frequent these climes?

Personally, i haven't ever found it necessary to scare the women-folk and the chillin's with a lot of noisey rhetoric or cars to prove myself, but put it on the race-track, where it belongs.

[computerworks]

Boys...I'm going to jump in right now and suggest that this thread stay pure to the topic and not take a negative side trip, OK?

Take the philosophical disagreements offline.

Thanks
Ron
ClubCobra Moderator

[PatBuckley]

Wordy as usual, but I suggest you re-read what I posted.

[Tom Kirkham]

Pat I agree with you for the USA. Our sales in the US of 289 cars has been rather small in comparision to the 427. It is over 10 to 1 in favor of the 427. I am sure that the same is true of almost all the other manufactures. However the ratio is almost the reverse in Europe. I am sure this is due to the price of gas and that the 427 cars were extremly rare (hence the question of FIA papers) in Europe while the 289 was in the headlines. However, I wish that AC had homologated 289 coil spring car. An interesting bit of trivia is almost all of the people who have bought one of our hybid cars have owned original cars.

[Tom Kirkham]

Bert,

It would be great to hear what they had to say about racing a 427 in Europe. I am sure that their stories would have to fantastic. They might even have a copy of the homlogation papers.

[nikbj68]

Hi Pat. Trevor wasn`t saying the AC289 is just a 'nice' drive, ( a little British reserve there!) but that in his opinion is the best driving Cobra of them all. My driving experience runs only to a handful of Cobras (real 289, replica 427,replica 3.5 + 5.3 etc.) but I know that when racing in the 60`s with a leafsprung 289, my Dad was not disgraced against John Woolfe in the 7-litre Cobra, as they competed in Production Sports over 3000cc class. How much better is the coilsprung?
Is it fair to say that a 289 had the measure of the 427 on most tracks, everything but a drag race?
With 'several' Cobras in the stable, I look to you, whatsa, for definitive answers!
Sorry, I think I`m dragging this way off topic now, so I`ll leave it there!

[Trevor Legate]

Hello Bert

Thank you so much for your reply! Yes I would LOVE to hear Frank Monise's story as I will be using a previously unpublished photo of one of Ed's 427s at the Nurburgring. Stuck here in the UK its hard to track down the people who were at the sharp end of such adventures. Goes to show - ask the right question in the right place and somebody somewhere will have the answer!!! I'd love to know how to contact Frank. Lets get the story right. And if he has any info re homolgation papers - even better.

Pat

Thanks for your thoughts. I apologise if I appear to cast doubt on the parentage of the Mighty 427, but I live in the UK and make judgements on that basis. Over here, a 427 is as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike. I have driven 7-litres, race cars, MkIIs, AC289s and even Tom's excellent FIA car. Bottom of my wish-list is the 427. In this country we are blessed with roads that have bends (lots) and roundabouts (hundreds!!) and we need cars that do not carry huge lumps of Deetroit iron up front that haul us smiling into the scenery. This is why I drive a Caterham 7. Quick into bends, even faster out, steering on the throttle. Try that in a 427 and you just end up facing the way you came. Not much fun.

I bow to the more expert opinion of Martin who is the mechanic at Hawk Cars where he has 3, 427s and assorted 289 Cobras at his disposal. He drives a regular 'demonstration' route and the fastest car is the 289, by a substantial margin. The 427's just tramline over white lines, road markings and suffer from the serious problem we have with bumpy, uneven roads - very often, the rear of the 427 will just pick up the camber at the side of the road and before you know it, you are sideways and heading for the bushes.......no such problem with the 289's! On roads that are an easy 80mph for the 289, you'd be working very hard at 50 in the 427. Blame the Romans if you will. PLUS - the first time you fill the fuel tanks of your 427 here in good old Blighty, you'd be begging to be allowed to buy a 1-litre Toyotahonda rice burner when you see the bill. Trust me!

Ron

Hope the above is not too philosophical - just my side of the coin.

Tom

You keep building 'em and I'll keep saving my pennies in the hope that one day Gerry can build build my FIA. It will look resplendent in a shade of metallic gun-metal grey.
Hey ho, its a warm sunny day, so a blat in the 7 might be in order!

[What'saCobra?]

Some say wordy, some say high-contented, but nobody says gentle.

Well said, lads. Even better, it's true.

Of course, given that Trev is not driving a real Lotus Seven, but a knock-off (and better for it), the implication that throttle steer isn't easily available on a 427 isn't precise. There's plenty of throttle steer available, but lurid tail slides are not the quickest way through the corner for a 427 (or anything else, for that matter).

And TL's 427 drives that tramlined and shuddered accross paint and bumpy corners perhaps had lousey tire choices, excessive anti-roll bars, never been bump-steered, Koni's too tight, axles not balanced for torque, not enough camber, and, please forgive me, drivers without enough seat time. The 427 need not be quite THAT slower, but 1 or 2 tenths second per turn would be more like it.

Having watched Miles (and Sam Finestein) drive the big blocks both early and late in their race history and having a little seat time myself, they are not necessarily a disaster, but not easy to set-up correctly either on the street or track to compensate for that low grade magnet in the nose.

The only modest criticism i would ever make of BA's Cobra production was that they were never delivered for best tune in handling, despite all the other merits of their wonderful craftsmanship. But, after all, that's really also a personal preference, isn't it? And the best race set-up isn't always the best street tune, isit?

Given the host of postings on this and many other sites by owners trying to find a tire that works on a 15" dia. rim, the gentle reader should begin to question the wisdom of so much torque and the difficulties of controling it. The thoughts of smaller wheel wells brings anxieties to the 427 owner, who already suffers from both end adhesion problems. 10" wide rubber is seriously inadequate already-yet and given the over-weightedness of most rigs, handling balance is far from the owner's frontal cortex.

Even the wonderful Kirkhams best respond to an alloy FE, to begin to moderate the evils of iron angst. The knowledgable order the alloy 3rd member, anxiously wait the alloy cased Kee toploaders or delivery of the alloy cased Tremmec 600's and wander about without adequate bumper protection because they like the style (and it drops another 20# of fat.) 12/14" wide fronts and 16/18" wide rears would be just about right to handle an iron 427's unique combination of weight and torque, i might suppose. But, what about an aly small block in the 289 Sports?

Oh yea, and brakes? The original Girling CR's were trash in the day, but the only choice. You could get in about one or two good laps before they faded to oblivion, just after the Goodyear Blue Streak tires were getting nice and warm and grippy.

So, today, the well-bred choose Wilwood, Alcon or AP or F1 (etc.) brake systems to try and tame the 427 beast's ponderous iron lard.

Given the availability of "427" body shapes nearly alone for the last almost 40 years, it is even surprizing that as much as 10% are ordering the "FIA." i know the "real" AC Cars, USA FIA of two springs ago went wanting for many many months wishing a buyer, despite its rather fabulous looks, finish and "lineage." They were looking for $100K in the end, but i don't know what was finally paid. (any thoughts, MKIV?)

3 years of small block availability in the USA isn't much compared to 40 years of salivation and magazine drivel, is it?

But, a small block, leaf sprung aly car will never sell very high, because of both the short image and the handling limits of the cross-leaf springs (But, Corvetts has it under control at the rear of the Vette, don't they?). When you get them working correctly at the track, it is not at all a comfortable car on the street, hence the "buggy-spring" euphorisms of ole' Shel'.

But, a proper "lightweight" coil spring car, with a fresh look, yet very close to a 427 shape and top specs (who says a small block should be small inside, have you ever driven an American sb at 7500rpm or so?) and penultimate low weight (under 2000) might create a market, rather than follow it.

It is not clear to me why we would have to suffer with a BMW for a good street ride.

[PatBuckley]

Damn it, I hate to be wordy but you all are forcing me to be - which you all may live to regret, as I am sure that I am about as incapable of being wordy as a 427 is in dusting off a 289 on a tight smooth race track.

Trevor -

I realize that I am a few clicks behind you when it comes to making my point but please don't misunderstand what I was attempting to say - I am in total agreement with you regarding the differences between sb's and bb's. My point was more toward what the American Cobra buying public is willing to pay for.

Not to demean (my own choice either) but there are some pretty adolescent reasons out there for buying a 427 vs a 289. I would bet that there are even a few 427's out there that have way too much in the engine compartment and barely enough in the braking, suspension, and drivers compartments. I can look to myself in at least one of these areas - I am positive that my almost 500 cubic inch aluminum engine has about 350 more horsepower then I can safely use on the street, limited not only by by the suspension but my lack of experience in street racing one of these beasts. I also have a Lotus 7 knock off so I do have something to compare....although I must say the Cobra is at least 10 times more comfortable then that 7 will ever be!

What'saCobra-

Again, the point I was making, that few seemed to get, was that no matter how nice a driver, or how much faster, or cooler running, or better handling, a small block is then a big block, most of the Cobra buyers in the USA will opt for the fire breathing big block. Why? I suppose there are a number of reasons, main ones being things like the road test that Car&Driver ( a piss poor rag, IMO) did of a 427 back in 1966 which quickened the pulse of every 14 - 40 year old male out there. I know it made me lust after something beside a female for the first time. Some other cars that I lusted after in the day where the Nickey Chevrolet Can Am car that Road and Track tested (if I remember correctly it did the 50-70 move in 6 tenths of a second - could that be right?) and the Fiat Abarth OT 1600 (0-60 in 4.3 sec back in 1965 or something...incredible!) In any case, I am off track here. Other reasons why a small block doesn't have the same level of desire here in the USA - again my opinion - is the shock and awe, obnoxiousness factor. Every rube has to ask...."is it a big block?" In the USA, sadly, there is only one correct answer to that question. I am reminded of boxing - watching a heavyweight contest between Tyson and whomever vs watching Hagler and Hearns....there is no question which is the better fight but the public flocks to watch the big guys battle.

Regarding cigarette lighters on motorcycles - I think Turk has one on his Harley, so apparently, on a lighter note, these aren't quite as useless as you make out!

Nikbj68 -

I wasn't referring to you when I made my "flailing" comment! I am enjoying watching you valiantly trying to keep this thread on track though!

It's all good.

Pat Buckley

[Turk]

I am planning on leaving the cigarette lighter on the bike even after I quit smoking. Handy for the GPS, the cell phone the radar detector and powering up the Driver/Passenger communication system.

I was even thinking about installing another to power up the DVD to watch some of the old racing battles of the earlier cars.

Isn't the reason for the popularity of 427 over 289 in US similar to the popularity of Harley Davidson over Itallian Pettite' Lambravetti or whatever the girls ride. You know those 500-850 cc things!!

[Trevor Legate]

That brought out a lot of worthy comment, did it not? Jolly good show.

I have indeed driven your fair highways, and even crossed the Mojave, and I can see the joy of a bloomin' big block on such straight ribbons of tarmac. Lots to said for lots of grunt in such surroundings. I concede the point, willingly.

I know that 'steering on the throttle' is not the fastest way to proceed, but its good fun and much much safer in the smaller 7 than attempting the same trick in a Cobra. I admit I lack such skill/nerve/stupidity to attempt anything so rash with a seven litre monster. I'll stay home and carry on with my needlepoint, thanks.

Also admit that my 7 is not a Lotus and, as you say, and all the better for it!! The original was method of losing all your fillings, to the delight of your dentist (Morgan owners know that) but my New Improved version boasts the sooperdooper De Dion rear end that adds luxury and comfort to my bottom as my twilight years approach ever faster. The comfort factor the one thing that everbody, without exception, comments upon after their little blat. Not to say that the odd pothole has been known to jolt me awake, however.....

I might have known youz peoples would have ashtrays (and lighters, cup holders, drinks dispensers and karioke machines) fitted to your bikes. You Americans.....!!!!!

Anyhow, whatever floats your boat, its good to talk

[What'saCobra?]

Fair 'nuff and well said at that. No need to swear, though.

Don't forget that we now have stroker aly FORD small blocks safely pushing 7000rpm and 7 liters, all steel internals. Who needs the extra 200#'s?

We haven't even talked about the increased polar moment (ne: polar inertia) caused by the extra nose poundage of an FE (which was actually pretty light for its day compared to the competition). This resistance to heading change and propensity to keep rotating is tres importante on a mickey mouse course. And on the street when that New England stoned wall is dead ahead.

When the unwary ask about my Chevy engine (7 liter Traco, Rocket block, 730hp , w/Lucas/Kinsler injection), i replied it's "only a sb." But, after all, stealth is even more fun in the end. Trounce them first, talk afterwards.

i had so many obnoxious challengers with the ZR-1 on the street, i had the model emblems removed from the dealership during the first week. VERY few people knew how to find one without those signals (the ZR still had the roof brake lights, even though it had the new rear lights.) And i had more fun, when i chose to run, particularly against a few Cob Kits. Surprise! Stealth, man. More stealthy than any Cobra today.

The best stealth, of course, was in the day (middle 60's) with a street Cobra, 2434, dressed in dark BRG, tan seats, chrome wire wheels, hot engine bits and Firestone Indy Rains and looking sort of like a slightly leaner Austin Healey and hunting unsuspecting Corvettes. Man, did i suck them in and out my pipes! No one understood how quick they were. i used to sneak up on fast bikes scraping pegs in the turns and out drag them out of the turns (i was afraid to pass them, thinking they might lay down and be collected by my Ben-Hur knockoffs. Bikers are even more notoriously unskilled at the limit than 'Vette and kit drivers.)

Stealth, man. Less tickets, less grief, more usable power, less fuel/tire/rim/heat/brake/money/neighbor/Gestapo and family support problems. Definitely more cool, understated, cautious, conservative, high contented, low-profiled, historic outside, state-of-the-art inside, driven to the limit and away from the crowd, if you can say that about any Cobra...

You folks are going to think i LIKE these things, for pete's sake.

For those that are unwilling to see the obvious point of my line, i think current regulatory events, costs and true driving needs point further away from as many BB's in the future. But, not zero. It also points towards more nitches in the already nitched market, like most premium-priced products and services. Becoming the lowest cost producer means more units with common cores (read: Chassis). Not being the least cost producer (note, i have said nothing about price, just cost) means gonzo. Always. The only remaining variable is when.

But, i may be wrong.