FIA Homologation Papers

[Jamo]

Assolutely.

[clayfoushee]

Best thread yet during my time on CC

Thanks gentlemen, and others........

[What'saCobra?]

Byots,
Looking forward to your posting the FIA 427 docs.

i neither infered not said the 427 wasn't funded by FORD in 1965. Rather, i said the 289 was not funded by FORD after May, so no 289 development work was completed except for the Daytona work by SA. In fact, i was quite clear that mucho money continued to pour into the 427 and the better and quicker professional Cobra pilots climbed out of 289's and into 427's.

Again, the points Trev and i raised were for sb coil spring street cars, not requiring even more proofs of 427 coil cars beating 289 leaf cars, either in the past or today or next bloody week. But, no one is curious why the 289's lost their Webers? OK by me.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, i am now curious how well a stroked small block coil spring car would run against an FE coil spring car. Which is more like what we were sort of asking, although, again, we were talking street balance, cost and all the other variables i posted a few meters ago. Not racing.

Look, i love the 7 liter engines. i just don't think today that the FE is the best or most economical way to get there. i sold my last 427 FE SO TP Dry Sumped (FORD original magnesium pan and front engine cover with built in sump pump) motor last month. It was near NOS, unsleeved, matching TP med. rise heads in iron, 2x4bbl aly intake manif. and quite unmolested. It was nice, and very valuable (got a fair price), but the development cost to turn that into a serious race engine was neither cheap nor a safe investment. The history of that particular engine made it a perfect match for an original MKII or MKIV GT40, so an owner in EU wanted it and i finally let it go. He found me in a moment of weakness and i didn't want to see it end up in some kit with a 9" rear axle and square frame tubes under plastic fantastic. It is too valuable as a historical item to risk racing, since it cannot go FIA racing, except in a proper GT40, which i ain't got...

i've had it a long time and it's good for around 500 HP for 500 race miles or so between OH. (Ask me why it had smaller diameter rod big end bearings and a turned down crank.) A sb stroked 351 will produce 600HP+ at half the cost or less, contain wonderful new stuff and weigh 200# less. Unless you are racing FIA GT40's, the FE is likely unnecessary. But, on the street, it is even less necessary.

And, if you insist on aly blocks (with which i heartily concur), consider an aly 351. i am sure y'all know where the big stroked sb engine concept came from...the Chevy Rocket Blocks (sometimes called "tall" blocks) of now almost 8 years ago. That revolution resulted in everyone getting on Chevy's bandwagon with their own "tall blocks". So, also FORD, finally.

And the big liter bb's have had their development investment pushed by the off-shore boat racing crowd, who buy more bb's than we will ever demand.

Of course, the CanAm cars also use aly bb's, but they are usually only 8-9 liters and very few are built each year compared to boats.

My point, however, is that i see a market for a coil sprung car, very lightweight, sb powered (but with up to big power) as great street cars...

And with all the advantages of lower cost and better handling in all the compass points.

Thanks for listening, though.

Your wierdy, wordy, nerdy old phartista.

[Turk]

That right there, says it all!!

TURK

[PatBuckley]

Somehow, I don't think so.

[Jamo]

Naw.

[nikbj68]

Whatsa....Why did it have a smaller diameter rod big end bearings and a turned down crank?
This has been a great thread!

[Trevor Legate]

I do love a long topic. Seriously, this is Good Stuff and I am learning more each day - research made easy from the comfort of ma fancy noo computer chair. Beats making phone calls. Keep it coming. More info on the removal of the Webers please!!

Also hope to see sight of the homologation papers...just nosey I guess.

Whatsa... I was about to ask if your ex-427 SO was the one I photographed a few months ago over here in the Old Country, but if its headed into a '40' I guess it was not. There is a similar lump about to go into an 'AC' AC Cobra, (a Frimley car)

Jamo -
A bit off topic, but who cares..
I was aware of Mr.Smiths location since he was probably the first person I spoke to in the US when I began work on my first book circa 1979. He sent me photos and stuff and we had phone conversations. Genuinely nice guy - send him my regards when you next meet.
Anyone who drives any Cobra like he did that day is a Grade 1 Hero in my book. Just jealous! I have also driven thru Fresno, around the Napa valley, up to Yosemite and in one day drove from Yosemite, south thru the Sierras, then east to that long road that heads north thru the Mojave, thru Bishop and up to Carson City in order to photograph Mr. Smith and his 427 at the hillclimb the following day. So I do know some of roads out there.

To go back many moons and postings - IN THE UK, an sb Cobra is quicker, sweeter, nicer, less of a white-knuckle drive than any bb anyday. In my opinion. I accept I might be wrong. But I'm not.

[What'saCobra?]

Mr. T,
Nice of you to qualify, "in the UK", but you are right everywhere, likely. But, i sorely do like big liter engines, while not necessarily following the loquacious lemmings lusting for bb loco-nirvana.

We haven't discussed the transmission issues much yet, either. Up to now, it wasn't possible to have a really quick bb and still turn less than 2600 rpm or so at 60 mph, because there was no 5 speed that would take the torque (and i am not sure that the new Tremmec 600 is even yet being shipped.) The huge torque of the bb didn't allow the HD 3550 without breakage, unless you averaged low power settings and no drags. So, the heavy top loader was necessary, 4 speed only. A few folks use 3.3 gears, but usually opt for 3.54 as optimum, if the car is evented at all seriously.

Because of this ratio problem, i still have a 3.08 and a 4.11 still rolling around in storage. The 4.11 was necessary for a 289 race car at LimeRock Park and the 3.08 was necessary for a 427 racer at Sebring and Daytona if you wanted the engine to live over an hour. i know they are pretty expensive these days, but you never know when you need one, do you?

But, as we agree, there is no way a leaf car can really become par with a coil car, at the limit. The weaker chassis and lack of stuffness dooms tire traction and wheel control. But, as you say, driver skills can overcome many shortcomings. i wish i saw the Carson City event.

Back later to discuss smaller big ends and Weber politics a bit more.

Cio, baby!

[Byots]

What'sa: Is your 3:08 gearset an old original or the replacement Dana style (different spline, thread, etc)? Used or new and are you considering selling it?

[Byots]

Tom - Just sent you a fax to (801) 377-8254, as the other number you gave didn't work. M

[Tom Kirkham]

Mike,

Thank you very much. I will work on getting a better copy. Thank you for catching the fax number I gave out the shop number. Just to clear up the confusion 801-377-8224 is the shop (voice) line and 801-377-8254 is the fax line.

Thanks again

[Jamo]

WhatsaMatterYou (I nickname everybody... )

As our dearly departed President Reagan used to say: "Well...there you go again."

Actually, many of us are quite happy with 3.31 gearsets with the wide ratio toploader for overall goodness...on the street. A 3.54 tends to necessitate the close ratio, which is not really necessary given the torque. We're not running big cubed loafers...our stroked Shelbys (4.250) are at 484 cubes with very lumpy camming and 10.5 to 1 compressions (suitable for pump gas). BTW, my motor was built by Boghosian, and was built up next to Smith's own original FE to very nearly the same specs...he having more compression most notably.

I do have a bit of experience with something akin to your prefered combination. For several years, I ran a Butler (an old marque based on the older Arntz) with a high winding 351C and a Tremec 5 spd, jag rear and revised MG frontend. As you may know, the drivetrain in the Arntz/Butlers are significantly set back, with the front of the engine dead even with the side exhaust openings. An extremely good handling car that felt at home in tight autocrosses as well as mountain roads and tight tracks.

Comparing it to the Shelby motored Kirkham, without any non-"stock" setback, may be somewhat surprizing to others. I find the Kirkham handles every bit as well, if not better due to better shocks and tires, in every venue I have used it in. Now, while I will allow that the Cleveland motor is certainly heavier than the 289-302-351W family, the setback brought the f-r balance to darn near dead even (something on the order of 51/49%). I did not expect these results. I imagined I would be giving up something in the handling. I was extremely surprized to find that I did not.

The "lust" you imagine we unwashed have for the BB is not, by any means, a dizzying thing that blinds us. I must say that taking the Cleveland to 7K on a regular basis and having more gears to play with was a wonderful thing, but not any more so than taking the BB to 6K when necessary while being pressed back into the seat while maintaining the ability to cruize along at 2K without fault (a bit low for the Cleveland).

We are products of our past, and having been raised with big motors and torque certainly is different than being nurtured by revs and shifts. Then again, I would imagine that many thought the 289 to be a ponderous thing compared to the Bristol or even Ford six.



Trevor

Dick is a hero to many of us, mainly due to the uncanny knack he and others who drove these beasts in anger have for being just darn nice folk. Smitty was a contract pilot for one of my corporate farming clients back when the saddle leather on my briefcase was unblemished, and as a Chevy lover at that time, I was not overly impressed with his Cobra stories, especially since I never particularly liked that ugly front bumper of his. I knew the man before I knew his Cobra.

The roads you drove here are wonderful things. That was 395 you took up the back wall of the Sierra (Hollywood's standin for the Himalayas). I'm pretty sure the hillclimb must've been the Mt. Rose road or even the Kingsbury Grade, somewhat near where the Fliptop Cobra now resides. Then again, I'm sure the old man taking my toll on the one lane levee on the way to Portmeiron still wonders why I smiled so broadly after spending several hours driving from Cardiff.

[Trevor Legate]

Jamo/re Dick Smith

As you say, a great guy, but a shame about his front bumper! Jolly poor show. I thought it was there for a laugh when i saw it. Never did understand that one...

The hillclimb was the old 5-mile truck route up to Virginia City, not too far from Carson City. He was up against gen-uine Ferrari GTOs, 250LM's etc etc, but was the only driver to take the first 3 bends without lifting. Boy, did those other guys lift!! I believe the Ferrari OC got a bit bored with him winning every year so a couple of years after my visit, they put the biker Randy Mamola into a Porsche 930 Turbo on race tyres and he promptly set a new course record. So Dick went out and beat that. Therefore I forgive him his sad bumper.

I drove 2,500 miles over some wonderful roads and can't wait to come back and do it all again. (Just need to run the nightmare of getting through your airport checks - now there's another story)

I know that one-way toll road very well! Some wonderful roads out there. One of my best drives was running out of Wales on the A5 one perfect day with no other traffic around. I was in my 911 Targa and was used by an RAF Tornado jet as target practice. Great fun but he flew so low across me at one point, his backwash nearly sucked me clean off the road at around 90-ish....wonderful. My ears are still ringing as I had the roof off!

Having got this right off thread - look forward to your next 'Weber' posting Mr.Whatsit.

[Jamo]

Trevor

[MidOHasp]

Echoing Clay:

This has been the most entertaining thread I've read since I first joined CC (although that wasn't terribly long ago). I've learned more about the history of the car and the sport in the past couple of days than I ever knew, I think.

Keep the wonderful stories, commentary, etc... coming so I can continue to sit back with a cold beer or a glass of Cab and continue smiling.

JP

[Tom Kirkham]

Just some high lights from the 1966 SCCA Productioin Category Recognition From. Dated 10-7-1965. This paper also is for the FIA Group 4 Sports Cars.

Total weight less fuel but w/spare tire, oil, water 975 KG / 2,149 lbs
Ride height 4.625 inches front and 5.375 inches rear
Steel chassis aluminum body
4.235 bore x 3.784 stroke = 427.98 cid
Cast iron cylinder block
aluminum heads
dry sump or wet sump
close ratio toploader but also two tighter gear boxes
I believe that the car is also eligible for group 2 (Touring cars) as well as group 3 (Grand Touring Cars)

Optional equipment: aluminum radiator core, 2 x 4 Bbl carbs. Touring type wheels 7.50 x 15. Touring type fuel tank 68 liters.

This paperwork states that Shelby American, Inc had produced a minimum of 100 identical Cobra II, 427 automobiles to the specifications listed during the twelve-month period ending December, 1965. Is this the paperwork that got thrown out due to the lack of sufficient cars being built? Is this paperwork still valid?

[nikbj68]

for dragging us back!
Jamo. I`m only about 35 miles from that Toll and must sadly report it`s demise. I drove through about a month ago, surprised to find no bored teenager stood in the middle of the road with a folding table & plastic Ice-cream tub full of 5p coins! A sad day indeed.
Now all I need to go with these great roads is a great(...or good would do!) car to stomp them with.
OK.Someone get us back on topic again!

[Jamo]

It's the end of civilization, I tell you.


Tom

The ones that were built...they became the S/Cs?

[Byots]

Tom - I'm quite sure that paperwork is valid and approved, look at the FIA stamps and signatures on the first page, plus ACCUS has it in their files. The earlier version that I have is what I believe was submitted when the 427 was initially denied homologation around April '65. The earlier version lists the things like the wider wheels and 58mm weber induction - they obviously just pared things down for the later document to what was most commonly run by the independents they were trying to support in some small manner (they probably figured they had already gone through all the hoops, it was just a matter of having the min number of cars made)....