Not a Shelby but...an interesting tussle

[Historybuff]

The Mustang II in the Owls Head Museum, a concept car with no bumpers and extended nose, is listed on their website as a 1963 Mustang. Yet there is some argument going on now about which '64 Mustang is the oldest Mustang between two organizations that say they own the first Mutang. Why can't they consider this '63 the oldest?
It reminds me of when I was researching Corvettes I came across the fact that a few '63 Corvettes that were built on the '62 assembly line as what they call "Pilot Production" models, built solely to acquaint the workers on the line with how the new car goes together. These cars weren't supposed to be sold but damned if they didn't slip out....what say you?

[mrmustang]

Again another interesting question, why do you ask? Is this for your own personal archives, or are you planning as yet another "for profit" publication using someone else's information as if it was your own?

[427sharpe]

The Mustang argument you refer to is a semantic argument that really tests the bounds. FoMoCo owns Mustang 100001; a car that was originally sold in Canada to an airline pilot...accidentally! It was a 'pre-production' car that was sent out to the dealer just so they would have one to show...but somebody forgot to tell them it was not supposed to be sold. Ford worked a deal with the pilot for a trade for the 1,000,000 Mustang (a 1966) later so they could get #1 back. A fellow who owns a classic car mag says he owns the first truly production (meant for general sale) Mustang (around 100215 or so) and is trying to get 5.5 MILLION US$ for it. It seems as if almost everyone backs the Ford car as the first, but the seller of the latter keeps plugging...ya' never know!

[1ntCobra]

Well if you want to consider prototypes, then why isn't the Mustang I (2 seater mid-engine prototype), the first one. I wonder if there is a picture of that car in the book "Shelby's Wildlife"?

[427sharpe]

Because the Mustang I never recieved a VIN at all. Ford still owns that one as well as I recall.

[CobraEd]

????????????????

Do the words "Who Cares" apply here?

.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by 427sharpe

Because the Mustang I never recieved a VIN at all. Ford still owns that one as well as I recall.

Actually, it has a prototype VIN hand stamped in it's cowl, under the dash hoop just below where the steering column bolts in, and on the left rear frame rail


Bill S.

[1ntCobra]

The Mustang I's VIN is also located on the rails that the seats slide back and forward on, but I don't mind if I'm not a reference for that information in any book's bibliography because that information has been in the public domain for decades.

[Historybuff]

In reply to Mr. Mustang:
I read a lot of car magazines and websites every day and find that a lot of the information is fragmentary--just floating bits with no connection to each other. So I try to piece together information, really obscure stuff like "Was the 1964 Mustang fastback 2 seater I saw in Greenfield Village in 1964 an official Ford project or someone's custom?" I float this information on the web to see if anyone knows more than I do. It's like the story of the blind men that see the elephant, one feels the trunk and thinks an elephant is like a snake, etc. I feel that a historical forum is a place to ask such historical questions. Hopefully, if I piece together enough facts , I can draw a conclusion, I figure that's history that can be told someday once I have enough facts. A recent example is my discovery that the Mustang II prototype survived and is now in a museum (Owl's Head) . I thought it was destroyed years ago. So I brought that to the attention of the forum figuring East Coasters will now be able to see if in person. Maybe someone will buy it and bring it to a big auction on the West Coast and I will be able to see it. I have no profit motive if this happens, I just wonder what happened to the many Cobras and Mustangs I have seen in the last forty years, such as the Bertone Mustang, Mustang station wagon built by Intermeccanica, Mach I concept car, mid-engined Mustang, Osi Mustang, mid-engined Mustang II, Zagato Shelby Mustang, the Boss 429 missing in Vietnam and on and on. I figure if I'm interested, somebody else is so I bring it up. I believe the section I am in is about history and what better place to bring up historical questions. I am a little surprised at the forumite who cavalierly commented "who cares" about the controversy over which is the first Mustang. If you don't care about history, then
it takes a lot away of the pleasure of being a car enthusiast. If everyone had that attitude we could close all the car museums, ban car clubs and just be happy driving some drone car like a clapped out Chevette to our drudge jobs.

Re the Mustang I: While it was the first car Ford called a Mustang, I can't see it having a serial number as it was a one-off car (this despite the existance of a publicity picture of two of them in the same picture at the same time; which I figure was because one was a non running fiberglass or clay model)

[T5owner]

Actually the information published in most Mustang books has been fragmantary for the past 40-45 years. Websites are rarely set-up to give a complete picture of ones car history, otherwise these web authors would rather write a book.
It is for sure fun to research Mustang history and I've meanwhile spent 16 years and am each day surprised about tidbits you still can find today and with the help of Internet. The Internet (not necessarily forums, but rather e-mail accessability) actually lead to many new facts from hidden archives and cars appearing around the world, that have been thought being lost. But it takes usually a lot of trust to find those well preserved jewels, pics and testimonials and the info is only provided, if the auditorium is limited or remains in the insider circle for whatever reason.

Referring to the cars mentioned above:
1.The 2-seater was built by Dearborn Steel Tubing and said to be designed by Vince Gardner (see full story Collectible Automobile Oct. 2007)
2. You got pics of the surviving Shelby Zagato already from us with the owners permission
3. There were 3 Mustang I (the clay model, the running car and the fibreoptic show car).
There will be soon a few more books on the market in 2008 covering the development and details of the early Mustangs. Watch out.
4. The last trace of the Bertone Mustang was, that it was bought by a greek shipping owner and is rumoured to be in a museum. This rumour is the only trace known and. .is just that. I am still trying to find it.
5. Steven Strange has info on the mid-engined Boss429, if you refer to that one, parts of it have been found.
The Mustang II concept car was/is widely known to my knowledge.
As for the OSI Mustang any many others, there are sources like the Ford Osi club, I'll check on the stationwagon. I had a few contacts giving traces.

In general: What I appreciate in Wallys recent books, is adding fragments of the newly found web history tidbits to the known and often only rewritten (sometimes false) history of many other Mustang books. In this his newer books offer a greater perspective for those interested in the history, though none of the current books will have all the details, as there are still many things unpublished as of now.
I found in his Shelby text book that in most cases he gave proper reference to the sources, even for websites, but of course the reader nor me can't judge, where one is missing. Which other book author adds these hints to his writings?

In the end any forum and book is published to share the authors knowledge with others, the later ensures the income of the author as well. Whoever makes a job out of car history research, isn't necessarily an enemy, he can still be a car enthusiast.
Unfortunately many authors tend to forget the sources and claim the knowledge for themselves. Mr. Mustangs point is certainly the commercial background of W.Ws. questions. There might be an easy solution to that in changing the avatar.
Proper crediting is easy (so do I typically in my non-commercial website) and in my view the people responding to Wallys questions share their knowledge voluntarily, otherwise one would not post on a forum or am I wrong? The response also is not necessarily the forums property, but solely the writers, thus Wally might rather credit the author writing the response, instead of the forum. Would be interesting to discuss this? Maybe not
Anyway I've built a lot of experience with known writers over the year, some remember the sources, most not, still some move our hobby forward and thus are a part of it and in most cases they do their job longer than any forum visitor, thus preserving these tidbids for generations to come. My opinion, but I remain open to others.
Wolfgang
Ponysite.de

[Historybuff]

After enjoying reading your website for years, I think we come from the same place/motivation--we see isolated facts and try to put them together in some sort of history.
Often we are impeded by auto company executives who, for some reason or another, have concocted a story that they like about the evoution of a car and don't want the real story known (maybe they have burned bridges with the supplier, etc.). This is similar to chronicling miitary campaigns where the historian writing the after action report isn't told about the ammo that was sent to the wrong place, botched communications, etc. Thus the "first Mustang" story, Ford PR concocted one up and hates to admit that the story might have been bogus when as you say on your website, several pre-production Mustangs were sent to Europe for prep. as rally cars. that was in 1964!

As an observer of the car world for over 4 decades, I have unanswered questions about every brand of car, not just Ford-engined ones, but often only get them answered when I run across one of the famous people involved at some place like the Monterey Historic or Pebble Beach.

Another Ford question for instance is the Mach 2 mid engined show car.
(289, ZF transaxle). I one time saw a picture of a racing model and heard the name Alan Moffett in connection with it. I am curious to know how far along the development of a race car went, who was behind it and why it was stopped?
Also I would like to know if it still exists. It was a drivable car in show form and was loaned to a Motor Trend editor who drove it around Detroit and wrote about it in the magazine.

Lately because of Mike Lamm's stories on Vince Gardner, I'd like to read more about him to find out who at Ford supported his two seater Mustang coupe project. Mike Lamm is a historian who dwells 99% on historical aspects, though he recently published a new book on the present Pontiac Solstice. He was my boss at Motor Trend 42 years ago where he one time nixed the offer of a 427 Cobra test car. (Mike, I'm still mad!)

[Mark IV]

But Wally,

You still do not answer Bill (Mr. Mustang)....you pop in here and other sites on occaision, ask pointed questions, wait for replies and never answer again! Some of the topics you bring are controversial, yet topical (The SAAC/Shelby pissing match) and others are thinly veiled attempts at book/article research with no credits given. Not to mention the pitches for your latest book/painting/video etc.

It might seem in my replies to you, that "I have it in for you", that is not the case, it's just that you have taken commercial advantage of this and other sites without financial support or even regular content contribution. That, my friend, is not cricket on these venues. I have rotated support as I am unable to support all the forums I visit and respect, but I don't post self-serving commercial ads or appeals to those venues. You do..................

[Dinobyte]

Has he ever even made a financial contribution to the site? No I say.

Off with his head!

[John McMahon]

Just another Candy Ass, living off of folks that feed him info. You gotta pay to play.

Go play in traffic.

[Don]

From AutoWeek.com:

Mustang No. 100001
By ROGER HART

Depending on your definition of "first," the first Mustang that rolled off the line at Ford Motor Co.'s Rouge plant in March 1964 is either residing at the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, Michigan, or is up for sale at a used-car dealership outside Chicago.

Some say the first Mustang is the one with serial number 100001, a Wimbledon white convertible with black vinyl interior that was sold through a dealership in Newfoundland, Canada, in the spring of 1964 ("Pony Car Progenitor," AW, June 16, 2003).

Not so fast, says Randy Paddock, general manager of www. classicmusclecars.com, based in Wauconda, Illinois. He has what he says is the first "production" Mustang, also a white convertible, which bears serial number 100212--and a price tag of $5.5 million.

"There were between 185 and 211 preproduction Mustangs built," Paddock says, and "all those preproduction cars, including Mustang 100001, were not supposed to be sold. They were supposed to go to dealers for promotional purposes or to shows, including the World's Fair, but none of them was meant for retail sales.

"First, we are not saying anything derogatory about the car at the museum," says Paddock. "But those preproduction cars all have a build date of '05C,' which means they were built on March 5. The actual date for the first production cars was March 9, signified by '09C' on the build plate.

"In our opinion, and I think we've got the facts on our side, we have the first production car. Those others were all preproduction and were not intended for sale. This is the last untold story of the muscle-car era," Paddock says. "We do tremendous research on everything we sell, and when we get all done with our research, we're going to prove our point."

Bob Casey, curator of transportation at the Henry Ford Museum, says he doesn't want to get into a debate with Paddock, but the car in the museum has serial number 1. And typically, preproduction cars don't necessarily receive vehicle identification numbers.
The VIN plate from No. 100001
"To say that our car wasn't built for sale is not quite right," Casey says. "Serial number 1 went to Newfoundland, and the car with serial number 2 went to the Yukon. Those were the two farthest places away from Dearborn, and they wanted to be sure all the dealers had a car for the official on-sale date. Our research shows that Ford did not intend to sell car No. 1, but they forgot to tell the dealer that."

Mustang 100001 was sold to Stanley Tucker, an airline pilot who snapped up the car from his local dealer. Shortly after the sale, Ford wanted the Mustang back, and after a couple of years of negotiations, Tucker agreed to trade his 100001 for a 1966 model that was the one-millionth Mustang built. Think about it: Ford sold 1,293,557 Mustangs in two years!

With just a little more than 10,000 miles on the odometer, the Mustang returned to Dearborn, only to go into storage. The museum had a policy of not displaying anything that was not yet 20 years old.

In 1987, the Mustang was displayed in the Henry Ford Museum as part of the permanent exhibit "Automobile in American Life," which included many historically significant automobiles. But the car had not been in running operation since shortly after its return to Dearborn in the mid-1960s.

All of that changed before the Mustang's 40th and Ford's 100th anniversary in 2003. Museum officials got the car back in working order so it could take part in the museum's annual Motor Muster of historic cars. After having a new water pump and battery installed and getting filled up with a tank of new fuel, the Mustang started right up.

The Mustang remains one of the top automotive attractions at the museum, Casey says, adding that he gets many requests for the car to appear at car shows around the country. He declines most of those, he says, because museum visitors want to see the car.

Not to throw fire on the flames, but Casey says he's seen research showing that maybe even Mustang No. 1 wasn't the first car down the line.
Mustang No. 100212
"The owner of Mustang serial number 2 has done exhaustive research on this subject, and he makes a strong case that his car, a coupe, might actually have been the first car to come down the line. It would make sense; a coupe is easier to build, less complex than a convertible. So what I like to say is that the first production Mustang may be different from the first Mustang produced."

Drew Alcazar, founder of the Russo and Steele auction, says that the car with the lowest serial number usually wins.

"Either you have a car with a one and a bunch of zeroes in front of it, or you don't," Alcazar says. "All you've really got [with Paddock's claim] is an early production car. And in terms of cold, hard cash value, being an early production car doesn't really mean that much."

As for the $5.5 million price tag, Alcazar says good luck.

"Hey, it never hurts to ask, I always say. With a well-restored '65 Mustang convertible going for the mid-$40,000s range, I just don't see it translating to hard dollars."

Paddock says his company purchased the first production Mustang--or Mustang 100212, depending on your point of view--from a broker late last year. The car was originally purchased by a couple who had preordered it through Powell Ford in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. The bill of sale shows it was sold on April 16, 1964, one day ahead of the official on-sale date for the Mustang.

"Cars are not necessarily always built in the order of their VIN," Casey counters. "But if this guy [Paddock] can prove his car is first, more power to him. But I would think that if that is the case, his car's serial number would be closer to No. 1 than No. 212."


AutoWeek | Updated: 02/26/08, 10:25 am et

Article URL: Tale of two 'Stangs - AutoWeek Magazine

[T5owner]

Acc. to the Mustang Production Guide (Jim Smart/Jim Haskell) pre-production cars got 5S1xxxxxx stampings. I will post later a pic of Alan Manns preproduction Mustang that he had as early as February/first few days of March* 1964 acc. to his mechanic John Grant and Alan. The car is said to be still in the UK and has a rather lower stamping in the first 10 digits of those mystery preproduction 5S codes.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by T5owner

Acc. to the Mustang Production Guide (Jim Smart/Jim Haskell) pre-production cars got 5S1xxxxxx stampings. I will post later a pic of Alan Manns preproduction Mustang that he had as early as February 1964 acc. to his mechanic John Grant. (Alan could only remember that it was very cold). The car is said to be still in the UK and has a rather lower stamping in the first 10 digits of those mystery preproduction 5S codes.

Yup, as Drew A. has already stated "good luck" to their 5.5M asking price, along with the story "told to them by the other dealer who sold it to them".


Bill S.

[T5owner]

Maybe my post was inaccurate.

I was not mentioning the Mustangs build on the Dearborn assembly line with 05C date code that start with 5F08F100001 (defined as Job 1), but the Mustangs built prior to that date, defined as Pilot Plant cars (S code). Acc. to Jim S./Jim H. they confirmed with Ford internal people that actually 150 cars were assembled at Fords Body and Assembly Division at Allen Park south of Dearborn on a mini assembly line Built for engineering and promotional purposes.
In some of the early magazine articles (Ford internal press clippings sampling booklet "Mustang makes Major Magazines" by Robert Hefty, Manager Ford Public Relations Manager, you can read about the reference to the early pre-production cars).
The Pilot Plant Mustangs (as other Ford cars) were mainly used for assembly testing before the production was handed over to Dearborn.
This car above is most probably (!) one of them send in Jan/Feb 1964 to Alan Mann for suspension tests for the oncoming rallye programm. One other mechanic of Alan Mann remembered it had a #3 mark.
Picture thanks to Alan Mann himself which came along with some documentation.
The car was hidden upon arrival at Roy Pierpoints heavy vehicle garage and all Mustang emblems or insignias had to be removed after this pic for testing at Goodwood, because the Mustang was not yet launched in the US.
The car or what is left is not for sale and probably will never be.
As said there will be 2-3 more publications about early Mustangs this year, those preproduction cars plus more on the history 1962-1964. In the meantime one can visit my fellows website here in my country at www.early-mustang.com or read the full interview with John Grant http://www.ponysite.de/john_grant.htm or http://www.ponysite.de/alanmann.htm
Wether Pilot Plant Mustangs were transferred to Dearborn final assembly line for running down the line to be shown off as "production cars", you can speculate until the publications will appear. My view is it is always good to "keep the hood open" for new facts.