Blog: History of AC Cobra

[Don]

The following was posted on the NASCAR web site in their Blog section.....hope the links work


The History of the AC Cobra Part one
Monday October 27, 2008 @ 02:25 Pm Edt
POSTED BY CHALLANGER

http://community.nascar.com/crews/CL...EW/blogs/55065

The history Of AC Cobra Part two
Wednesday October 29, 2008 @ 05:21 Pm Edt
POSTED BY CHALLANGER

http://community.nascar.com/crews/CL...EW/blogs/55270

[Historybuff]

Though at first glance it appears well researched, I spotted a couple errors.
The AC428 was called the AC428 not the "AC Frua" though Frua designed it and built the bodywork.
I doubt Ken Miles called the 427 prototype The Turd. That was the practice of the guys in the shop to knock everything that was coming along that was new, just as they called the Cobra Daytona prototype The Turd.
And again myseriously, this writer, who mis-spells the word "Challenger" brings back that pesky CSX0001 serial number for the first Cobra which Shelby says is CSX2000.
Finally the part about Shelby finishing the event in Nevada with the twin Paxton--I knew a guy who participated in these wing-dings and he told me personally that when Shelby blew up the twin Paxton and parked it by the side of the road, he was happy to hitch a ride in this guy's Lamborghini as he had important bidness in Elko.

Overall, though, it's good that NASCAR pays attention to the sporty car guys

[What'saCobra?]

Nor do i recall Angliss "admitting" that only Shel' could call his car a Cobra. AC Cars Limited (Angliss) retained that right from FORD until it folded in 1995(?), if i recall correctly. It was AC Cars Group Ltd. (Lubinsky et al) that were quite correctly told by FORD to cease and desist using the moniker, as they were not any longer building an EU legal automobile (BS, TUV) .

[1ntCobra]

Originally Posted by What'saCobra?

Nor do i recall Angliss "admitting" that only Shel' could call his car a Cobra. AC Cars Limited (Angliss) retained that right from FORD until it folded in 1995(?), if i recall correctly. It was AC Cars Group Ltd. (Lubinsky et al) that were quite correctly told by FORD to cease and desist using the moniker, as they were not any longer building an EU legal automobile (BS, TUV) .

I have a feeling that AC did not continuously have the permission from Ford to use the Cobra name until 1995. After all the coil spring cars with the small block V8s that AC sold were not called cobras. Perhaps it was when Angliss started making the Mk IVs that he got the permission to use the cobra name, but only in Europe. Mk IVs were not called cobras in the U.S.

[Trevor Legate]

True - Ford were impressed by the MkIV (Mike Kranefuss and others brought examples) and were prepared to give AC Cars, under Angliss ownership, a 25-year deal to use the Cobra name. This went down the drain when AC was sold in 1996 to another person who traded as AC Motor Holdings, not AC Cars Ltd.

[CobraEd]

It's a SHELBY Cobra. Until Shel got a hold of it it was just a little under powered british roadster from a company that was on the brink of going out of business.


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[LMH]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

It's a SHELBY Cobra. Until Shel got a hold of it it was just a little under powered british roadster from a company that was on the brink of going out of business.


.

Actually, it's not. It's an A.C. Cobra as quoted from the chassis manual that came with each car. "The A.C. Cobra is designed and built at the A.C. Factory, England"...

It does say in the second paragraph that "Shelby American Inc. is responsible for the conception of the car, and in America for fitting of the engine and gear box, manufactured by the Ford Motor Company of America."

But it doesn't name the car as "Shelby Cobra".

Larry

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

It's a SHELBY Cobra. Until Shel got a hold of it it was just a little under powered british roadster from a company that was on the brink of going out of business.
.

Well not exactly...Bristol Aeroplane Company, the supplier of the Bristol engine used by AC Cars Ltd was going out of business. AC Cars was not going out of business.
The V8 260ci was not the first Ford engine used in an AC, the first was a 2.6 liter 6 cyl used in the Rudd Speed.
By the way,there is no reference to 'Shelby' anywhere on 260 & 289 Cobras. They were known as AC Cobras.

[ng8264723]

They were also NOT about to go out of bus. Perhaps (Cobra ED) you should read before posting

[What'saCobra?]

My earlier AC-sourced lightweight MKIV, ne: MKIII sort of, MK II and MK III S/C's all had Cobra labels on the door jambs and on the booklets. They were made in the early to mid-nineties.

It is my impression that the MKIV and continuation MK III's were given unlimited use of the Cobra moniker for Cobras, outside of N. America. Perhaps more precisely, AC Cars Limited never LOST the use of the name until not only after the AC company was wound-up, but also when it became public knowledge that the cars had lost their legal status in both GB and the EU. This includes during the period of legal wars with FORD (which Angliss clearly won) and with Shelby (which, IMHO and arguably, Angliss also won). Mr. Lubinsky & crew were given cease and desist orders after their purchase, it is my recollection from certain of the principals.

But, perhaps i remain misinformed.

[Trevor Legate]

I seem to recall that the little "underpowered roadster" gave a darn good account of itself in SAAC racing - so the opposition must have been even more underpowered? Obviously. Or was it just a good little sports car?

I shall have to do some research and every time that old saga about AC goin' bust (!!!) gets regurgitated for the millionth time, I'll post AC's accounts for 1960/61 and show just how very profitable the AC 'company' was.....

[What'saCobra?]

AC Cars Limited was VERY successful, at one time the second oldest auto manufacturer after Daimler-Benz.

AC's won their class regularly in SCCA during the fifties and sixties and were bumped into higher classes quite frequently. That flexible-flyer (an old US brand of children's ice sled) chassis allowed the Dunlops, Avons and Michelins to grip the track in very predictable ways to ease the driving control at the limit and allow a brave driver much deeper transitions.
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A Partial Record

USA SCCA Championships, according to Mills, AC in Detail, 2008:

1956 Ace Bristol 4th EP (Class E Production Rules)
1957 Ace Bristol 1st EP
1958 Ace Bristol 1st EP
1959 Ace Bristol 1st EP
1960 Ace Bristol 1st DP (Class D, bumped up a class, too much success)
1961 Ace Bristol 1st CP (Class C, bumped up a class, way too much success)

1957 LeMans 24 hour, 2nd, (S 2.0 liter)
Sebring 12 hour, 3rd, 4th (S 2.0 liter)
1958 Sebring 12 hour, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th (S 2.0 liter)
LeMans 24 hour, 2nd, 3rd (S 2.0 liter)
1959 Sebring 12 hour, 1st, 2nd (GT 2.0 liter)
1960 LeMans 24 hour, 1st (GT 2.0 liter)

This global success is certainly not the result of loosey-goosey wino-werks, but excellence in design, engineering, manufacturing, championship driving, team-management and preparation. All achieved pre-Shelby.
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Now, if you don't think Mr. Shelby dwelled and promoted at LENGTH on these AC wins in America's premier SCCA and at LeMans and every other European venue, when he was pitching first, Chevrolet, then FORD and AC Cars Limited, you don't understand human behavior. Shelby's timing was propitious for everyone involved in the project. Especially Carrol's. AC's successes were legendary at least, particularly for a smallish hand-crafted specialist company, where race-cars were certainly never the primary focus. But, they were international winners and Shelby promoted himself AND AC to FORD as a winning team effort, available to FORD for a wee dram of cash, a few engines and a brave heart. Dave Evans at FORD had the brave heart.

Chevrolet Corvette was commandeered by Zora Arkus-Duntov (an engineer-driver imported from Belgium) who had shamed Chevrolet into engine hot-rod parts, citing FORD's easy off-the-shelf support to teams and drivers. He was not about to let the Texan share his authority in ANY way. Chevrolet said no, without thanks. Cannot blame Zora. He was also a champion... and today's marvelous Corvette still contains his genes and inspiration.

Shelby was an international championship winning driver of very serious note, including 1959 LeMans with Aston Martin (w/Roy Salvadori as co-driver) and helped Aston Martin win the 1959 World Championship (w/co-drivers Salvadori, Reg Parnell and Stirling Moss). Shelby was proud of his association with AC and vicariously touted the AC chassis strengths and sophistication, including the Girling brakes, fully-independent suspensions, ultra-light all-up weight and fine handling qualities.

Shelby had already raced against and observed plenty of SoCal specials, Masers and Aston Martins with Chevy V-8's and knew how quick and successful they were. Tube-framed and aly-bodied Superleggera construction with a US V-8 was the cat's buttinski. He knew it. He wanted his own.

The final combination of FORD's new engine(s), FORD money, AC Cars Limited design & production strengths and Shelby's promotional and driving strengths was simply unbeatable at the time. From 1963 to as late as 1975 Cobras couldn't often be beaten. All of this was done with two basic designs.

Of course, 1962 saw the AC Cobra first appear in A Production. CP and DP Ace Bristols continued to win, but interest in the car was cannibalized by the appearance of the Cobras, which completely dominated AP and BP (no webers, less fender).

289 and 427 Cobras dominated SCCA (with a few exceptions) until Sam Fienstein's "Ollie, the Fire-Breathing* Dragon", CSX 3009, won his last SCCA AP ARRC Championship at Road Atlanta in 1973... eight years after the 427 first appeared in competition. Sam won the New England Divisional Championships of both 1974 and 1975, and still placed 6th and 4th at the ARRC run-offs against new production Corvettes more than ten years younger.

Sam's car, particularly the chassis bits, was quite literally disintegrating around him after so many years of very successful racing as the Essex Wire (Skip Scott, **** Thompson), Eger Ford (Ed Lowther) and then Sam's wins. Recall that GM's Corvettes had another decade of chassis, suspension and engine development to try unsuccessfully to beat a car that had an essentially frozen design in 1964/5.

IMHO, this story and this car is the greatest testament to the design and specialist engineering excellence of the original 427 Cobra. People like Shelby, Phil Remmington, Ken Miles, Klaus Arning, Bob Negstad, and many others placed a big well-earned laurel wreath on the industry and the sport.

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i failed to take Sam's offer of 10K USD for "Ollie", one of my more stupid decisions. Who wanted to pay the price of a used 275LM for a used and abused FORD? i was too smart for that.

On the other hand...
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Sam's "Ollie", an alloy-head 427 SO special, frequently belched under-hood fire during start-ups or over-priming when cold. Ollie usually "surprised" the rubber-necked pit-pilots as they warmed their hands in their pockets at Bryar, Limerock or Long Pond's chilly-morning practice.

[CobraEd]

Of course AC was a car that existed and had a racing heritage early on. But until Shel came into the picture, the word "Cobra" never existed.

Who put the V8 in it and named it "Cobra" and made it a made it a "Cobra" as the formidable car we know? . . . . It was all Shelby.

Therefore, from my simple point of view, The car as we all know and love it came into being first and only as a "Shelby Cobra". What AC did with the Ford V8 AFTER Shelby created it is a moot point. I think many people are over analyzing this.


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[What'saCobra?]

Where do you think the Cobra name came from? A Shelby Dream? Maybe. In one of his early personal books, he claims so. OK by me. No reason to doubt it.

Additionally...
Perhaps it is worth recalling that in 1955 Chris Craft manufactured 106 limited production 2 seat exclusive sports boats with a really big "stabilizing" vertical fin called the COBRA. It had available a Cadillac V-8 engine, among others, available in both 18' and 21' versions and was capable of about 50 MPH on water. For a production boat this was pretty darn spectacular in 1955! Once seen, never to be forgotton, particularly at the time. They are still show stoppers. Looks like sixty miles an hour tied to the dock!

They were sold in California particularly well. Very beautiful and very expensive. Hard to find, but very quick.

Here's a picture and site to check-out:
http://216.37.204.53/cobra/50th.htm

Do you think CS saw one of these and liked the moniker? I do. And it was a good idea, wasn't it? Give the man credit, for heaven's sake. Very popular in CA and Lake Tahoe in the day, i am assured. i was only 15 at the time, and rural New Hampshire was not exactly high class, except on lakes Winnipesaukie and Squam.

Fortunately for Shelby, Chris Craft management was not litigious at the time and left Shel' alone, unless he planned to take the car to water.

Some folks, though, think that ol'Shel' walks on water...

Much more surprising, why doesn't anyone ever talk about this Cobra moniker on a super-high-performance boat cum-superleggera racer?

Keeping it simple doesn't require re-writing the past from 1962 to 1965, when ALL 289's were called, titled and registered as AC Cobra's, with a few funny exceptions due to various US state regulations and errors. Some were registered as FORD's, FORD Cobras, etc, also. Ned Scudder has lots of examples in his great files. No doubt even a very few sport the Shelby name for some obscure reason or other.

Keeping with the simple, USA 427's were never called AC's, except in error, but variously Shelby Cobras, Shelby 427's, etc., etc.. Shelby would simply not allow such a travesty of justice on HIS car. Fortunately, FORD was not so hyped; though i have seen papers calling them FORD Shelby, Shelby FORD... but, never the combination of Shelby & AC.

One man's opinion, of course, doesn't make a horse race.

i met Mr. Shelby, the man that started all this anti-AC stuff, again last December and he still has the gift. He can still charm a Cobra into your pocket, if necessary. He certainly remains, like most of us, a mixed bag. But, for the most obvious of reasons, he retains my ever-lasting thanks for all these years of enjoyment and occasionally frustrating pleasure.
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For a longer discussion of this old chestnut, you might see:
AC 289 Original

[Trevor Legate]

The 260 and 289-powered Cobras were sold as both Shelby (in the USA) and AC (rest of the world)

The 427 was only ever a Shelby Cobra.

very simple - end of story.

[CobraEd]

Yes, but who created it, . . . . AC . . . NO! Shelby created it.

[Trevor Legate]

I never said He didn't create it (but what car did he use to create it?) I just said that 'the car' was sold in all markets other than the USA as an AC Cobra. It was never an issue then, so it cannot be an issue worth discussing now. It's a statement of fact.

Every 'AC Cobras' was built and completed at the Thames Ditton factory, as AC were entitled to do. (Read the first Shelby American sales brochure :-) When I was at college I saw (and heard) these beautiful sports cars coming and going from Ken Rudds showroom and they were called AC Cobras. I knew the cars that were shipped to the USA were Shelby Cobras 'cos I read it in Autocar. The 427 was only ever a Shelby Cobra, because AC stopped producing cars for the UK market for about two years, which was a bummer as I loved the original car, but as a poor art student it was waay over my non-existent budget.

Had C$ dropped the V8 into an Aston Martin, the UK and European version would have been called the Aston Martin Cobra, or maybe Jensen Cobra, Austin-Healey Cobra.....no?

[PANAVIA]

"Its not who makes the *nut*, its the *nut* who makes it..." --Steve

PS: Hi Trev.

[nikbj68]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Yes, but who created it, . . . . AC . . . NO! Shelby created it.

No. AC created it. Carroll Shelby IMPROVED it.
A LOT, granted!

Originally Posted by CobraEd

...Therefore, from my simple point of view, The car...came into being first and only as a "Shelby Cobra"...I think many people are over analyzing this.

And I think some are over simplifying it too.
Yeah, re-write history if it makes you happy, but don`t expect everyone else to jump on your bandwagon just because you shout it loud 'n' often.

[JWilly]

I'm not well enough versed in Shelby/Coba history to get into this fray but I always did wonder how CS took the body and chassis from A.C. cars and an engine from Ford and, bingo...it's a Shelby (although, I'm really glad he did). It always seemed to me to be more of a recombination (with some improvements,of course) than a "creation".