351W Stroker kit and RPM

[sapper_g]

I've found a block and a local machine shop to bore it and hone it, and I plan to build the engine myself. I know that some stroker kits are better than others. Which brand/type of stroker kits work well for a 351W? This will be a street engine. I doubt I'll ever go over 100 mph, so acceleration is more important than top speed. What kind of RPM do I need in the 0-100 speed range?

Thanks,
Glenn

[Scott S]

My 427w would make 93mph in 3rd with a 3.73 rearend and a t-5.

I had it rev limited at 6200.

Still 2 more gears to go,

Scott S

[Jack21]

SCAT makes a crank specific for this. It's a 3.85" stroke, and makes 393ci when done. You can get the complete rotating assembly from SCAT if you want to, but for a street motor the stock rods will work. Stock 302 pistons are supposed to work, but KB has a stroker piston specific for this #364. You'll need to notch the block a tad for rod bolt clearance. Then balance it. Set your rev limiter around 6200 with stock rods.

That's it. 440HP, 460fp/tq in a package that weighs less than an iron head 302. The original 427 FE was rated at 425hp, 470fp/tq, and with iron heads as found in 427 Galaxies back then weighed nearly double that of your stroker.

Much over 393, though and your 2.02/1.60 heads start becoming breathing restrictions and you're looking at Cleveland, Blue Thunder, or Yates heads.

[Brad Pfeifer]

Sapper,

Coast High Performance and PAW make stroker kits for the 351W. See www.coasthigh.com or www.pawinc.com for details.

Also see the November 2000 issue of "Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords" (or something to that effect) for an article on putting Air Flow Researce 185 heads on a stroked 351W. With a Comp Cam, it made over 500 hp. I saw the article on Westech Performances website.

Brad

[Andy Dunn]

the four popular places for buying stroker's or stroker kits seem to be Coast, PAW, Speedomotive, and Summit. Here is a piece of an old post on this topic (slanted to 427w, but still applies to 393 etc)

Speedomotive
member Fassnake has a 427w and I believe he loves it
http://www.cobraforum.com/cgi-bin/u...ic&f=1&t=015887
a post with some grumbly words
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/sho...ht=speedomotive

Coast High
I know of at least 5 members with a CHP's 427w
david truelove
xcessive1
Patrick Roth
Scott S
me
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/sho...=&threadid=7834
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/sho...5&highlight=PAW
I think everyone is very happy with their engines.

I haven't read much from people using PAW kits but I know two or three members went that route.

If I was going to do it, I would use the shopping list on Summit's website. If you price it out, it costs probably the same as buying the engine completed...see what you think

from the trickflow site
http://www.trickflow.com/articles/st..._st_2_body.htm


Summit Racing Equipment
393 Stroker Parts List

Block:
1979 351W with .030" overbore
Crankshaft:
Summit cast 3.850" stroke (SES-5-53-05-000)
Connecting Rods:
Summit H-beam, 5.955" long (SES-5-48-05-200)
Pistons:
Trick Flow/Arias 10:1 forged (TFS-51404010)
Piston Rings:
Speed-Pro plasma moly (SLP-R9771035)
Main Bearings:
Federal Mogul (FEM-5078M)
Connecting Rod Bearings:
Federal Mogul (FEM-3380CPA)
Camshaft Bearings:
Federal Mogul (FEM-1204M)
Camshaft:
Crane hydraulic roller (CRN-449761)
Roller Cam Retrofit Kit with Lifters:
Crane (CRN-44306-1)
Timing Set:
Cloyes True Roller (CLO-9-3135)
Harmonic Damper:
ATI (ATI-918911)
Oil Pump:
Melling high volume (MEL-M83HV)
Oil Pump Pickup:
Moroso (MOR-24514)
Oil Pump Shaft:
Ford Motorsport (FMS-M6605A341)
Oil Pan:
Moroso 7 quart (MOR-20520)
Cylinder Heads:
Trick Flow Twisted Wedge R-Series (TFS-52400002)
Rocker Arms:
Trick Flow roller, 1.6 ratio (TFS-51400520)
Pushrods:
Trick Flow chromemoly, 8.500" long (TFS-21408500)
Valve Springs:
Crane (CRN-99895-16)
Valve Covers:
Trick Flow cast aluminum (TFS-51411802)
Intake Manifold:
Edelbrock Victor Jr. 351 (EDL-2981)
Carburetor:
Holley 750 cfm double pumper (HLY-0-80528-1)
Distributor:
MSD Billet (MSD-8578)
Spark Plug Wires:
MSD (MSD-31329)
Water Pump:
Meziere electric (MEZ-WP111B)
Water Pump Blockoff Plate:
Meziere (MEZ-WP113B)
Flywheel:
Ram (RAM-1527)
Gasket Set:
Trick Flow (TFS-51400915)
Main Cap Studs:
ARP (ARP-154-5403)
Cylinder Head Studs:
ARP (ARP-154-4003)
Camshaft Bolt:
ARP (ARP-255-1001)
Harmonic Damper Bolt:
ARP (ARP-150-2501)
Rocker Arm Studs:
ARP (ARP-100-7101)
Flywheel Bolts:
ARP (ARP-350-2802)
Engine Accessory Bolt Kit:
ARP (ARP-554-9503)
Expansion Plug Kit:
HPX (HPX-710-585)
Valve Cover Hold-Downs:
Summit T-handle (SUM-G3421)


hope this info is useful

Andy
http://www.cobralads.com

[Brad Pfeifer]

Andy,

Thanks for this information. I did not know that Summit had a stroker motor. Where did you find out about it, and how do I ask about it (I haven't seen it in their catalog)

This brings up a second question about stroking a 351W. 393 vs. 427? Obviously there are pro's and con's to both. Fear is that a 427 is pushing the envelope of a 351 and will not tolerate high RPM's, but, you get to say you have a 427!

I would be interested to hear from the folks you mentioned - excessive1 where are you! - regarding the 393/427 consideration.

Brad

[sapper_g]

Thank you all for the skinny on the stroker kits. There are some great sources here for me to check out.

When I got serious about building a Cobra, I was frustrated that it will be a year or so before I can actually start. Now I'm realizing that it will take me a year to learn and plan. This site is a great resource, and I really appreciate everyone letting me pick their brains about what works and what doesn't.

Glenn

"So many options, so little money."

[Andy Dunn]

Originally posted by Brad Pfeifer
Andy, Thanks for this information. I did not know that Summit had a stroker motor. Where did you find out about it, and how do I ask about it (I haven't seen it in their catalog)Brad

Well Brad, they don't sell a crate stroker as such. They did a series of tech articles on building 3 strokers. I think it was titled "Stroker's Wild" and they started first with a 347 build up and I think it dyno'd at 400hp. They then did the 393 build up and then they did a monster engine...a 514 or something. These pages do not seem to be on their site anymore and I had to re-find the shopping list on the TrickFlow site.

OK! I just found them with Google

347 Stroker
http://www.summitracing.com/tech/how...02stroker1.htm

393 Stroker
http://www.summitracing.com/tech/how...ker2/index.htm

520 Stroker
http://www.summitracing.com/tech/how...02stroker3.htm

Summit Stroker Additional Tips
http://www.summitracing.com/tech/how...02stroker5.htm

and here are the same articles but they seem easier to read on the TrickFlow site. TrickFlow promotes them since they were the heads used on these engines
http://www.trickflow.com/articles/st..._st_1_body.htm
http://www.trickflow.com/articles/st..._st_2_body.htm
http://www.trickflow.com/articles/st..._st_3_body.htm

I think a friend and I priced out the Summit 393 parts list and it is somewhere between $6500 and $7k if you buy everything on there which makes it more economical to almost go with the Ford Crate. If you enjoy building things yourself or have some of the parts, the Summit list might work well or help act as a guide for the things needed.

Regarding the reliability of the 393 vs the 427. I personally think they are very close in terms of reliability. many people wil spout of that the 393 is "so much more reliable" when I would say there are probably 10-20 owners of 393s on this board and 10-15 of the 427s and the reliability posts seem even. Here is a cut and paste from a previous post of mine on reliability vs stroke

RELIABILITY
///////////////////////

I equate engine reliabilty with Piston Speed. Since this is directly proportional to RPM, you can have a 200,000 mile 427w stroker if you redline it at 5k (if reliability is what you are after)

Piston Speed Calculator
http://www.prestage.com/carmath/calc_pistonspeed.asp

I believe the coast 427 stroker has a stroke of 4.170". With a 6000 redline, that equates to a 4,170 feet/min piston speed. With a high caliber component crate engine, I think anything in the 4000 - 4500 range is acceptable. If you want huge reliability, 5k redline (3,475 feet/min). If you want a solid engine with tons of torque, 6k redline (4,170 feet/min). If you want to flirt with the edge of the envalope, 7000k (4,865 feet/min)

Here is an example of 3.5L Oldsmobile engine that buzzes to 10,700 in the Indy Racing League and this is 4,650 feet/min. Their 1999 engine was pushing 4,800 feet/min
http://www.indyracingleague.com/pre...ent-122399.html

From SuperFlow.com website on Torque Vs Speed:
http://www.superflow.com/support/su...rquevsspeed.htm
A more telling determinate of power is stroke. The speed at which an engine develops its engine power is usually determined by the stroke. Typically, maximum power is developed when the average piston speed is between 4,000 and 4,500 ft/minute (20 to 23 meters/second).

...from the 4,170 calculation above on a 427 with a 6k redline, it looks like the engine is right in that optimum range.


if you want to find more members with these engines and read how much they like them, check out the links here to other posts on the subject

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/show...5&pagenumber=2


hope this info is useful




Andy
http://www.cobralads.com

[xcessive1]

brad-check your privale email-chris

[Andy Dunn]

one thing to clarify

Sources for STROKER KITS

Coast High Performance
http://www.coasthigh.com/Kits/kits_street_fighter.htm

Speedomotive
http://www.speedomotive.com/Stroker%20Kits.htm

Performance Auto Warehouse
http://www.pawinc.com/

Summit (not kits but have all parts)
http://www.summitracing.com

North Coast
http://www.nthcoast.com/strokerkits.html

Online Racer
http://www.online-racer.com/ford_stroker_kits.htm

Strokerkits.com
http://www.strokerkits.com/351w.htm

Flatlander (even have 351 stroked to 454?)
http://www.flatlanderracing.com/strokerford.html


Sources for STROKER CRATES

Coast High Performance
http://www.coasthigh.com/Crate_Motors/427_Crate.htm

Engine Factory (will stroke engines to 390s)
http://www.enginefactory.com/351W.htm

Indy Mustang
http://www.indymustang.stangnet.com/custom.html

Ford Power
http://www.ford-power.com/engines.htm

Golen's Engine Service
http://www.golensengineservice.com/e....asp?engine=94

JC Performance (347 strokers)
http://www.jcperformance.com/

Southern Automotive
http://www.southernautomotiveengines.com/



Andy

[Brad Pfeifer]

Awesome Andy,

This is incredible information! Many thanks! Anyone out there building a nice 351W would do well to read your posts.

Next question - These motors are described using Trick Flow heads. Any idea how trick flow compares to Air Flow Research? Summit says Trick Flow is bolt on 78HP. Westech Performance did a story where AFR heads added 75 HP. Both considerably more than Edelbrock or Dart.

BRad

[Brad Pfeifer]

Chris,

Many thanks!

Brad

[Andy Dunn]

Well Brad

the 'Best Head" debate can quickly turn into a religious war

I personally like the TrickFlow but interestingly enough, the 427w guys have mainly favored the Victor Jr. heads. Patrick Roth, RGINN, David Truelove and xcessive1 all used Edelbrock Victor Jrs. One nice thing about the Edelbrock head is that I believe they use a steal thread insert for the header bolts. I know I stripped one of my bolts in my soft aluminum.

Jim's Gems did a 396 Ford Crate and did the AFR 185 switch and got 482HP (just a tad under 500). Most of the 427w guys who have been on the dyno are above the 500 mark.

Here are some interesting head testing reports that might help make up your mind. It is a little tricky since no test really covers all the heads so you have to mix and match tests.

HEAD TO HEAD
Ford Muscle tests and ton of heads in three categories. They have recently placed the article behind a subscription wall but some of the charts still work.
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/05/heads/

and Google caches pages
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache...tml+&hl=en</a>

In my opinion, TrickFlow wins the 'Street' category and the Trickflow-R wins the 'Strip'







Others have argued that the Victor Jr Head is not a Strip head...and therefore, outperforms the TrickFlow Street, which can been seen in the numbers. Edelbrock themselve list the Victor Jr under "race heads"
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/raceheadford.html

Using the tests above, it would seem that the Victor Jr outflows the TrickFlow twisted wedge and is a awesome flowing head that several 427w owner's have had much success with. They have stated that the head is driveable on the street. I would be curious to see how the TrickFlow-R would perform on a 427w? I am not sure if this would be too radical for the street or not.

Where does AFR fit into this? 5.0 magazine did an article from Westechperformance ...the same folks that did the Bolt on 75HP story on the AFR 185s. Here are both stories

HAVING OUR HEADS EXAMINED
http://www.westechperformance.com/pa.../headsmag.html

75 HP BOLT ON
http://www.westechperformance.com/pa...s/75hpmag.html

In the heads article, they have a page with airflow numbers on the AFR 185s



From these numbers, it looks like the AFR185 beats the Twisted Wedge in intake but loses in exhaust. I would consider these heads equivalent. The AFR185 then would be ranked slightly under the Victor Jrs.

I haven't been on the dyno yet but West Tech is 15 minutes from my house and I might have to get on their chassis dyno once they complete it. I'll pass along the numbers when I get them.

...just a second!
I have a thrid test for you.

Panhandle Performce, who are very much into HEADS also conducted their own flow tests in SuperFord may 1999. Panhandle are big on porting and sell heads in 3 stages. Stage one being pretty well factory or out of the box. Here are the results



TrickFlow R once again takes the cake. This time the numbers are close to the Victor Jrs. This would lead me to believe that you might be able to get away with these heads on the street.

hope this info helps


Andy
http://www.cobralads.com

[MDR]

I just started my 393 build, I was given a 86 5.0 and a 351W so I am starting off Cheap. So far I have cannibalized the roller lifters hold downs and spider from the 5.0 and retrofitted them to the 351W.I had hoped to use the 5.0 pistons but the 351 is in bad need of a rebuild so I will have to go .30 and spring for new pistons. I have found that Speedway motors Inc. has a stroker kit for $799 or a Stroker crank for $450 which is $100 less than Summit you may want to check them out, they do have a web site.

Mike

[Brad Pfeifer]

Andy,

I heard about the AFR heads and the numbers from the article you attached. Part of the story is missing though. Ford claims their 392 stroker in full crate form makes 430 HP. The motor Westech started with made 462 HP, so I wonder what other modifications were made to give it a 30+ HP bump beforehand.

I am leaning now towards the 392 stroker short block. Looks as though from the Westech article, the Comp Cams Xtreme Energy cam would work best with some high-flow parts like a Victor intake and a . I already have the Demon carb.

Can we build 500 HP and have streetability with reliability?

Brad

[Andy Dunn]

Originally posted by Brad Pfeifer
I wonder what other modifications were made to give it a 30+ HP bump beforehand.

I think Ford generally understates their engines to be conservative. For example, their 351w crate with victor jr manifold is rated at 385hp, but if you talk to most dyno shops or windsor owner, that engine is generally considered 400hp at the dyno. I think Westech got the extra HP just because Ford understates.

The 392 is an awesome engine and I think you will be very pleased with it. You should be very close to 500HP. Streetable is almost a subjective term. Some people want an engine that idles at 600rpm, while others can accept 1200. A heavy clutch might bother some people while it is acceptable to others. 500hp usually is on the loud side, has a heavy clutch, and an idle at 1000+ rpm. The engine has tons of torgue so it rides well at low rpm.

You might find this post interesting. JimsGems build the 396 himself and pretty well followed the Westech blueprint and got a solid 482HP. I am not sure of the manifold he used...he says "edlebrock" but that could be RPM or VictorJR and I think that makes a little difference.

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/show...&highlight=AFR

I think you will be successful with a 500 HP goal if you go with

HEADS - AFR, VICTOR JR, or TRICKFLOW
CARB - 750 DEMON OR 750 HOLLEY
HEADERS - large ID - 3"
MANIFOLD - VictorJR
CAM - Comp Cams Xtreme Energy cam sounds like a great shoice




Andy

[Brad Pfeifer]

I am really leaning to the 392 stroker. PAW offered a 427 stroker that was cobbled together from various pieces- i.e. Mopar rods. Ford Racing now offers the 392 Stroker (though no stroker kit is available for the 351W as it is for the 302 and 460) that uses a Ford crank with 351 rods and 302 pistons. Seems to be a pretty stout setup.

Question now is, do I buy the 392 Stroker short block and build from there, or buy the parts and rebuild my motor? Sure there is a cost savings to rebuild mine, but I will have more parts left over. I can then reduce the cost by selling my old, but pretty much complete, engine.

How did Jims Gems do his?

Brad