460 pulley and bracket advice wanted!

[Tom Wells]

and I'll try to remember what I paid for it!

I have need of a crank pulley, alternator, water pump and power steering pulleys and brackets for a 460 in an E-M car.

Should I use v-belts or serpentine? I understand the later Ford 460 pickups used a twin serpentine setup with a conventional-direction rotation water pump, but haven't been able to find one to look at. The DC area seems to be an industrial desert...

Experience wanted, and ideas welcome!

Thanks in advance,

Tom

[dalola]

Tom,
Here is a pic of the March system I recently installed on my 460. It's their serpintine conversion kit, comes with everything you need. Kit levels are based on what accessories you have. I was really impressed with the quality, fit and function. It's all billet aluminum and clear coated, with SS hardware. Very nice stuff, as it should be for $300+. Another neat thing, the water pump pulley is slightly smaller than original, to provide better low rpm cooling. They call this their "Street Rod" drive, as opposed to underdriven pulleys, which can hamper low rpm cooling, as well as battery charging. I bought it direct from March.
Dave

[Tom Wells]

Dave,

Thanks for the photo which is worth at least 10^3 words!

I think I see how this is set up and it looks as though you have a single groove crank pulley. Is that correct?

If so, you may not have the power steering. I haven't been able to get a good photo or sketch, even from March's web site at marchperf.com. From what I can gather the PS setup adds another groove to the crank pulley.

I'll call March tomorrow and see if I can get some more info - thanks for the lead!

Regards,

Tom

[HighPlainsDrifter]

A cheeper way to hook up serpentine belts is to get the crank and water pump pulleys from an '94 460 truck at a wrecking yard,Paid $50 for mine.I did that and put a 5.0 liter mustang alternator and p.s. pump setup on my 460,I did have to fabricate brackets for the alt and PS, but it works great and the flowcooler water pump turns in the correct direction,not reversed like a 5.0 mustang.
Perry.

[dalola]

Tom,
You are correct, I have the single groove crank pulley, no power steering. I think you are correct also in the fact that the power steering kit includes the second belt just for the P/S, along with the 2-groove crank pulley. This same belt also runs the A/C if so equipped.(obviously, a longer belt)

I talked to Dan at March, and he was very helpful.

Good luck!
Dave

[Jack21]

Bob,

I've got a 351, but used the March pulley setup. A little pricey, but it looks good, and works well.

I have the power steering setup also.

March has what they call a Street Rod pulley ratio in addition to their more popular Performance ratio. The water pump pulley is a little smaller and turns a little faster offering better water flow at idle and low RPM's to provide more cooling.

DC Metro really isn't an industrial dessert, it only looks that way.

Can recommend good performance engine machine shop, good welding and fabrication shop, good hydraulics shop, good body & paint shop. What do you need?

[Tom Wells]

Jack21,

You can call me Bob, but don't call me late for lunch

What I need in DC is a relatively nearby place to go look at a 1990-1995 Ford F250 or F350 with a 460 in it to see if the double serpentine setup, pulleys and brackets, will be what I want.

As to co$t$, the March setup with PS pump and alternator will run about $800. The Ford PU setup complete would be about half that, so I feel it is worth taking a look at if I can find one.

Thanks for the thought - no offense here by the way

Regards,

Tom

[Jack21]

Sorry Tom,

Junkyards are South of DC on MD Rt. 5 & 301 around Waldorf. One in VA on Rt. 1 just North of Woodbridge.

I used V belts, not serpentine. Set w/ everything except PS was around $250 or so (Summit). PS was xtra $50, or so.

Be careful with the bracketry. Just because it fits the F150 or 250, doesn't necessarily mean it'll fit a Cobra. Hood, front suspension, steering shaft, headers, PS hoses are all a tight fit, with a 351. Worse with a 460. You might could use pieces of factory brackets, then have to make some. I used factory pump bracket from a van, but had to fab the rest. Mock it all up and check clearances.

What are you using for a steering rack, PS pump, hoses, alternator?

[Tom Wells]

Jack21,

>> Junkyards are South of DC...

I've called all the yards within about 40 miles - North and South of DC and haven't turned up a single one yet that had a 460 pickup.

>>What are you using for a steering rack, PS pump, hoses, alternator?

I am using a 1993 Mustang GT rack. I'd like to use a 1990 - 1993 Mustang alternator and PS pump. Power steering hoses will need to be fabricated.

>> Set w/ everything except PS was around $250 or so (Summit)

Set of March brackets and pulleys from Summit are just over $550. The alternator, PS pump and pulley are not included, and will run $200 plus. March uses a Saginaw (GM) pump which may be a learning experience, i.e., will it work with my rack or not?

HighPlainsDrifter,

Do you have a picture of your setup that shows the alternator and PS pump brackets?

Do you use a single groove pulley for the water pump?

Regards to all,

Tom

[427sharpe]

I used stock Ford brackets on mine, which dont look nearly as nice as the March. I suggest using E250-350 brackets, as the accessories are stacked slightly tighter in a van than a pickup, which can come in handy on a Cobra!! Rather than going scrounging, try your local Ford dealer--most of the 429-460 parts are discontinued, hence CHEAP! I do not run p/s, but I paid less than a $100 bucks for new crank and w/p pulleys and the alt bracket. I did have to alter my alt braket slightly because I added on the new 140 amp Ford internal reg alternator to provide a bit more spark to my Ford high output electronic ignition (which is a reboxed MSD 6AL w/ rev limiter)!

[Tom Wells]

427sharpe,

I know this is asking a lot: do you have the part numbers for the alternator brackets and the two pulleys (water pump and alt)? What are the diameters for the three pulleys? Does it cool and charge OK?

I suppose the crank pulley is single groove. I believe I'll need a double groove crank pulley so I can drive the PS pump off the second groove.

Might you have a photo of the setup you could share?

Black powdercoat on a $100 set of pulleys and brackets would look just dandy to me!

Regards,

Tom

[427sharpe]

My pulleys are still inplace, but I will try to find the invoice w/ PN's for you. Failing that, i'll climb around and get them off the pulleys themselves as soon as I can. I will either post here, or email you direct. RS

[427sharpe]

OK--here goes: the water pump pulley is: E1UZ-8509-A. The crank pulley is : D5UZ-6A312-B. The alternator bracket is 2 pcs., the first being a hollow tube spacer and the 2nd being a dog leg bracket that has a single hole on one end (that bolts to the head) and a long slotted hole on the other (that retains the adjuster bolt). No part number (sorry) because it was defaced in the 'fitment' process when I hung the oversize alternator. It does look almost exactly the same as the one on my 66 Mustang 289, though! By the numbers, the crank pulley would be the same from 75-82 on all 460's--regardless of application. It may be easier to find a Marquis or some such w/ the 460 than a p/u or van, yes?? It has 3 grooves, so it should be fine for your application. I think the only difference in the water pump pulley from 70-82 is diameter - the older ones are slightly bigger, meaning slower pump rotation. My pulleys were purchased for a 1982 E350 van, if that helps. Instead of calling yards for a specific vehicle, call and ask if they have pulleys for this application--they have a cross reference called a Hollander Manual that will give a series of alternate fitments that will replace the oe. Finally, my interchange shows all 429 pulleys to be the same as early 460 (pre 82). Hope this helps! Post here if I can assisy in any way. RCS

[Tom Wells]

427sharpe,

I'm hugely embarrassed to say that we have a mis-communication !

I am going to (try to) use serpentine belts. I believe from the numbers and year models you gave that you use v-belts.

For the difference, see the photo (above) that dalola has provided.

I apologize and feel bad for all the work you have done in identifying the part numbers. Hope you won't bear a grudge.

I ordered the pulleys, alt and PS pump today, so in a couple of weeks maybe I can have some answers. I got a 1994 serpentine crank pulley for a 460-equipped F250 with two grooves, a matching single groove water pump pulley, and the alt and PS units from a 1993 Mustang V8. The whole kit came to about $300US so far, plus I'll need to fabricate two brackets.

We'll see

Thanks for all the work,

Tom

[Jack21]

Tom,

I'm using a late Mustang power rack. Got the rebuilt one from AGR w/high effort valving, standard ratio (which is plenty quick enough in a Cobra). Got an AGR rebuilt low drag pump too. AGR stated the Ford or GM one would work but they preferred the GM for reliability. I also installed an RB's street rod valve in the pump which emulates the valve used in PS equipped Chevettes.

I needed a PS return line outlet for the rack (Ford), a PS high side line for the rack, and a GM high side line for the pump. Had them shortened and joined at hydraulics shop in Springfield. Fork lift repair hose. Had a new heavy duty driveshaft made next door. (Fullerton Rd.)

The pump bracket I got from a Ford van that uses GM pump. The rest of the bracket I had to make, along with alt bracket. Used a Delco alt. It all works very well, and nobody has jumped on me for having a "Chevy" alternator and power steering pump on a Ford engine in a Cobra.

Welding and industrial machine shop in Alexandria can make anything with a sketch, example, or drawing. They've made motor mounts, trans mounts, alt & PS brackets, bumper brackets, exhaust and heatshield brackets, spinner adapters, etc. Tell 'em it's for your Cobra and they'll tell you aqbout all the other Cobra parts they've made.

There's a chrome plating shop just off 395 in Arlington. Did a lot of odd pieces for me.

Burtonsville Speed & Machine did my engine. They claim most of the cars running at MIR use their engines. Knowledgible folks about Fords. They have an engine dyno facility there too.

Until I got into this project, I, like you, thought the only thing DC is good for is politics and bulls*it. I was mistaken.

[Tom Wells]

Hello Jack21,

Thanks.

Just picked up my completed engine from Boonsboro MD and took it up to PA where it is resting in "trial fit" mode in its chassis.

Got a new Ford rack for a 1993 GT Mustang, and just ordered pulleys, alt & pump as I mentioned to 427sharpe above. Got many fingers crossed that it will all work together OK without too many "learning experiences"!

Thanks for noting the local sources. I'll file them away for when the need arises.

Regards,

Tom

[dalola]

Tom,
Sounds like you are getting things sorted out and have a game plan, which brings me to my next question, which I know is WAY late..

Have you ever driven a Cobra without P/S? My casual observation is that the P/S setup is lots of extra work and headaches on these cars. I can honestly say, having driven both P/S and non P/S. I prefer the non. Even with my heavy 460, my car steers wonderfully with a manual Flaming River rack. Something else to keep in mind, if you ever plan to autocross, in a tight course, you will most likely out drive, or, be "ahead" of your production car type P/S system, which is a real pain in the a$$. I experienced this with a '90 5.0 Mustang that I autocrossed some.

Anyway, I know this is way late, I just wondered if you considered manual steering at all, or drove a Cobra with manual steering.

Good luck getting your car together! Sounds like you are getting close!

Dave

[Tom Wells]

Dave,

Now you tell me!

(just kidding!)

No I haven't driven a Cobra at all! I'm going by my experience with my last hotrod which did have the Mustang PS. It was a pleasure - even though the car was bigger so the comparison may be a bit stretched - very play-free and precise. Great for a primarily street-driven car. Also easy to park!

I guess my thought is that if the PS turns out to be a problem, I can "deduct" it later; probably a simpler task than adding PS after the fact.

I plan to drive this car a lot. Maybe not the 100K+ that I drove the last one, but it isn't intended to be a trailer queen.

Still in what my oldest son calls the "drum roll",

Tom

[dalola]

Tom,
Boy, you jump in with both feet, don't ya!

Get ready to be thrilled, scared, amazed, and most of all, to have more fun on 4 wheels than ever before!

Best of luck to you,
Dave