Still Frickin Hot - Update

[Clois Harlan]

Here is the latest results:

All fluid drained and replaced w/ 20% anti-freeze, Purple Ice, and distilled water. Installed new 16" 2500 cfm fan, new 180 deg thermostat, new sending unit and gauge, new 13# rad caps on rad and expansion tank. Purged all air from system. Head gaskets are absolutely installed correct. Rad has been checked by rad shop and told that it is just like new. New Edelbrock water pump.

Outside air temp is 45 deg, opened 18' garage door and rear side door and set a 20" electric fan in front of car. Started engine and temp gradually climbed to 250 deg in less than 15 minutes. Timing is set at 28-30 deg and engine was running at 1200 rpm. As temp reached 200 degree I removed the rad cap on expansion tank an noticed very little circulation in expansion tank. When temp reached 250 deg I turned engine off and watched the fluid puke out of the expansion tank. I also stuck a hand thermometer in top of expansion tank which read about 200 degree. I am not happy with the circulation at all and wonder what anyone thinks my next step should be?

I am beyond pissed off and looking at this as a challenge but I need your input.

Thanks.

Clois Harlan

[750hp]

Clois, sorry if you have already answered this, but does it overheat on the highway? I have a 460 Falcon that will start to get warm if in stop-start traffic on a hot day, but it will never overheat while I'm moving. Will your car go over 220 at a constant 60mph?

[CobraEd]

Clois, what is the static timing at idle? If you are only pullind 28 degrees of advance at high rpm, then you are way retarded (the engine). Set the static timing at between 10-14 degrees and try that. Make sure that your vacume advance is hooked to the variable vacume port that only creates vacume when you open the throttle, not the port with constant vacume at idle!!! Also, At what temp did the fan kick in?

Ed

[Frank Coppola]

Clois,

Hang in there buddy! I'm sure you have lots of company on this web site with those who have had a problem that cost 10 times what they planned, took 10 times longer than neccessary to figure out, and raised their blood pressure to the temp. of your cooling system. Rest assured when you solve this, as you surely will (Use this formula (TIME + MONEY)/ Patience = ANSWER), the answer will most likely be quite simple and probably inexpensive. I have been there my friend.

I concur with Cobra Ed, check your static timing (Or set the timing at a less radical degree and see if it makes a difference). Is your pump turning the correct rotation? You said the expansion tank read 200 deg. Did you calibrate your gauge with the thermometer? I went through two bad qauges in a row.

You have the best minds in the industry helping you here (myself excluded obviously) hang in there!

[Toivo]

I don't know, but if you repeatedly see NO circulation, somethings either blocked, or the pump isn't pumping.

Could the belts be loose, slipping, pullies too small?

Do you SEE the water pump pulley turning?

[Clois Harlan]

My pulley is turning correct and my belts are tight. I am using a March standard pulley. I also raised the front of the car to make sure I was getting all the air out of my system.

Tonight when I get home (now that I am sure I can travel for a few minutes) I will take it out for a spin around the block, that is unless we get the rain and snow predicted.

I have driven on the road and didn't seem to have a heat up problem a couple of weeks ago in 70 degree temps but I was only out for about ten or twenty minutes that time. Here is another question concerning circulation:

Those of you using an expansion tank, can you see good circulation by removing your rad cap on your expansion tank? I know it is baffeled and that could be why I am not seeing the circulation I want.

[hound dog]

Clois,
Remove the thermostat and check for circulation. If everything is working (water pump) there would be nothing to impede circulation and you should be able to see water flowing into the radiator from the return hose. Also check to be sure that the hose going from the radiator to the water pump isn't collapsing under the vacuum pulled by the water pump. I've seen several bad thermostats lately and that's why I'd start there. Eliminate the simple things first. If the radiator is clear, the water pump is turning the correct direction and moving water, belts tight, thermostat out, hose not collapsed, and you still have no water flow then there must be a blockage in the block or heads somewhere, or the head gasket is blown allowing combustion gases into the water channels. Been there done that!
h dog

[Clois Harlan]

Hey hound dog you HAD one more post than me.

I will pick up another thermostat tonight (just in case... ) and it is cheap. I have had the thermostat out and didn't notice in increase in circulation. To answer another question on timing:

I am running a MSD Distributer w/ mech advance and a MSD 6AL ignition box and when I try setting my timing at 10 degrees I can't start the engine. Setting my timing at 28 - 30 degrees seems to be the best. If I retard it any more it hardly starts and belches back thru my carb and rattles the valves when I turn off the key.

[Trans-Am Jim]

Clois:

If you have 28 - 30 initial advance, and it won't start with anything less, the distributor is installed wrong. Get the motor at TDC, pull the dist, and reset it so the rotor is pointing at plug wire #1. Thats a start. Set initial at 10 degrees with a light and go from there.

I'm not sayin' this has anything to do with your overheating, but 28 degrees init. advance is just not right -

[CobraEd]

Clois, retarding the timing should 1) make it easier to start not harder, 2) take away pinging (rattling the valves) not cause it, and 3) never blow back thru the carb.

All of the three things you mentioned are typically a result of too advanced timing, not too retarded timing.

Also, just as a test, when you get your new thermostat, put it in a pot of water on the stove. Turn the heat on and put a thermometer in the pot. Watch the temperature on the thermometer. As the temp reaches the thermostats rating, you should actually see it start to open. By the time the tempurature is 5 degrees above the rating, you should be able to see the thermostat fully opened in the pot of water. It is actually an interesting and fun experiment.

Next week we will start on mirrors and magnets.

Ed

[Clois Harlan]

My crank is stock one grove. My top dead center is marked with a little bump or tit. I know this is TDC because my crank also has the two XX marked at 45 degree for setting my valves. My #1 plug wire at my distributor is right on line at TDC. My rotor points directly at the #1 plug. Tonight I will also check to make sure I haven't made a mistake but I am pretty sure everything is OK.

[Andy FIA]

Clois - Clutching at straws but is the stat in the right way around, this could acount for the lack of circulation.

good luck

Andy

[CobraEd]

The ring on your harmonic dampner might have slipped. This happened to mine. Pretty common on old engines. Drove me crazy!!

[Homewrecker]

Another shot in the dark, but this timing thing has me confused. Do you have a couple of plug wires switched? This could make it not start & blow through the carb at the correct timing & let it run a little rough at an advanced setting while the cylinders fight each other (could cause overheating).

Just trying to think of simple things that you may not have checked.

[chopper]

FWIW, I think Trans Am Jim and Cobra Ed are on the correct path. If you have your timing set at 28-30 degrees at 1200 rpm, there's something wrong with your timing. Mr. Parham at Southern Automotive impressed upon me that ignition timing differences of just a few degrees will be evident in engine coolant temps. Check out this thread on the FE Forum:

FE timing

Most of us are running 9-10 degrees at idle speeds of about 900-950 rpm (this is with the mechanical advance MSD type distributors). Cobra Ed has identified one possible cause: the ring around the harmonic damper may have slipped. This is not unheard of with 35 year old dampers.

I assume this is a relatively new problem, as I saw your name listed as a Run'n'Gun participant in KitCar magazine and I assume you didn't have these problems then. Grasping at straws myself, the only other possibility I can think of is some sort of valve timing problem. Is it possible you've jumped a tooth on your camshaft timing sprocket? This could possibly account for some of the backfire/belching smoke problems you've cited. If the valve timing is off, it may require that you would have to compensate with altered ignition timing to eliminate backfire and such. The altered ignition timing would then lead to overheating. This is a long shot, as I would expect you would also experience a noticeable drop in engine performance at the same time.

As far as low coolant flow at idle, in my observation, even at operating temperature, there is not very much coolant flow evident through the expansion tank at idle rpm with the stock-type water pumps and pulleys.

I wish you luck, big guy. Keep us posted.

[ERA535]

Timing: You should have anywhere from 10 to 16 degrees of initial advance ( that is with the engine at idle).

As the engine revs up , the timing should advance in stages (depending on how the distributor is set up) until you have your total advance - anywhere from 32 to 38 degreees.

Is this what you have - I ask because it doesn't sound like you are familiar with how this should work - - If you are, I don't mean to be insulting, just trying to help!!

[Clois Harlan]

I had not thought of the timing chain or the dampner. But Those are easy checks since I am pulling my water pump off tonight. Plug wires have been double checked and labeled.

As far as the Run and Gun I was running a very strong 302/360 hp and at that time these kind of problems belonged to other people. But I just had to have a BB....at least that is what my wife is saying, and now they are my problems too. The heat issue will eventually by solved and in the mean time this is a learning process and maybe my problems will help someone else.

[Clois Harlan]

No test drive tonight ---we are getting snow and probably will have to wait until it melts Thursday (should be in 50's). So until then I will check my checks plus a few new things...After all this was a winter project.

[Tongue Pirate]

Being that all minor things can make one major pain in the ...! I was told by a builder once that even keeping your fuel line as far as possible from heat sources such as the heads, block or exhaust can help...

[Bob In Ct]

Clois:
This is what we know so far - the temp gauge is accurate, the thermostat is in correctly and is opening at 180-190, there is no air in the system. Correct? If so -

A few questions for you -

Does the fan on the radiator turn on? If so, is the air coming out of it cool? If it is you have a circulation problem!

Is the water (coolant) at the bottom of the radiator (the return hose) at ambiant? If it is you have a circulation problem.

Have you tried plugging the heater hoses? I'm convinced if the water pump is moving coolant it's not moving it through the radiator.

Bob