Alloy Heads for Cleveland

[cobra_dude]

Is there any Alloy cylinder heads and suitable inlet manifolds available for the 351 cleveland engine. I heard the SVO Yates cylinder heads can be modified to fit, but just what has to be done to achieve this?
I have a complete cleveland engine in and i was thinking of doing something with it as a project.
Would like to build a good street spec motor about 450h/p+, can anyone recommend a suitable cam spec. What h/p are the crank and rods good for.
There doesn`t seem to be much performance parts available, for these engines. I bought it when i was deciding which engine to use in a self build cobra kit, but along with a few other engines and piles of other parts it never got used and just covered up in corner of my factory.

Thanks

[kountzecobra]

Go to "network54" They have a forum on Cleveland engines and someone may be able to help you. Later, David.

[Dave Wharran]

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/119419
is the Cleveland forum
You might also check out some of the Pantera forums. They have a lot of good info.
http://realbig.com/detomaso/
http://realbig.com/pipermail/detomaso/
http://64.70.166.243/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi

Just finishing up my Cleveland. I'm using all Crane stuff for the valvetrain, hydraulic roller cam, roller rockers, springs, etc. 2V heads, TWM independent runner EFI, crank triggered direct fired ignition, about 10.2:1 compression. Scheduled for the dyno on March 14 to set up the EFI fuel and ignition maps. Using a Haltech E6K and Motec coilsets.

I'm looking for a good mannered street engine, so didn't go to radical with my choice of cam. Its PN 529551. The intake is about 224 degrees and the exhaust 232, both @.050, 112 degree lobe centers I believe. Gross lift is .586 intake and .609. Powerband is supposed to be 2800 to 6200. I advanced the cam 4 degrees.

Will post dyno results.

[chuck]

I do not know of any alloy heads,but you dont really need them.Except for the weight savings,alloy heads would have very little advantage over iron cleveland heads ,especially Austrailian heads(quench chambers with 2v intake runners) chuck

[Cobrabill]

Dave-interesting combo.Good choice with the 2V heads.I had a 73 Bronco that the previous owner stuffed a 2V Cleveland in it.With a small Holley on it,that truck flew.I'd be interested in hearing dyno results.

[Jack21]

First, to answer your question, there are two current sources for aluminum Cleveland heads. FMS sells the Yates heads, and Blue Thunder has recently introduced aluminum Cleveland heads. Some of the Ford hipo shops are now carrying them.

They're relatively expensive (~$1,800 US), and not particularly necessary on a Cleveland engine. There was a time when you almost couldn't give a set of Cleveland 4v heads away because 351 cubes was too small of an engine to use the airflow of the stock head.

Putting a set of these Blue Thunder Clevelands on a stroker 393 - 427 Windsor that can use the airflow might be worth looking into.

[427sharpe]

Heads will interchange between 351w/302 and 351C with very little machine work, basically just altering water routing---the Cleveland has a dry manifold and the Windsor a wet one. A popular conversion for a few years has been to use a set of 351M/400 heads on a 302/351W. Even the 'small' 351M heads' ports are MUCH bigger than any 302/351W setup, but not as big as the 351C 4v/Boss302 set. The 351C 4v and the Boss 302 heads are almost identical---only water routing is changed by drilling out the Cleveland water port on the head to block surface and installing a freeze plug (make sure it sets BELOW the head mount surface) and drilling a new hole in the head-to-manifold surface so water can flow into the intake. Use a Boss 302 manifold (will have port mismatch without port plates) or use the manifold specifically set up for this swap--I think Roush still sells it pretty reasonably. In reality, this is a lot of work considering how much progress has been made in Windsor heads like the twisted Wedge, etc...You could reverse the process and put a good set of W heads on the C by using the port plates and reversing the water flow proceedure described above....

[Dave Wharran]

Wanna go all out, check these out.

http://www.araoengineering.com/Ford/clevelnd.htm

I saw them first pointed out on the Pantera forum and more recently, the GT40 forum. Haven't read any reports from anyone who's used them though. I'd like to see a better picture of the rocker arm setup. They're not supposed to be inexpensive either. I've read $4000-$5000 per set but have never confirmed that. They aren't in my budget at present! I'll see how the 2V's do.

Also, check out

http://www.pim.net/newprod601.htm

for an aluminum "3V" Cleveland head.

[Jack21]

Dave,

Checked out your C3V heads site. Most interesting! $2000/pr is pricey from this vendors mark up, but these are Aussie made heads. Clevelands are still running strong in Australia, makes sense the Aussies would make an improved aluminum head for it. (and not charge $2000 U.S. for them either) Wonder why one of the more mainstream Ford performance parts houses, FPS, hell even Summit, hasn't gotten wind of this and started importing these and selling them at more realistic prices?

Wonder why some of our Aussie Cobra fans haven't tipped us off to the availability of these, and a source?

How about it you fellas down undah? Who's making these aluminum Cleveland 3 barrel heads? Could lead to a resurgence in popularity of Clevelands here.

Still intrigues me what a Cleveland headed 393 would do.

[Daniel Jones]

> Are there any alloy cylinder heads and suitable inlet manifolds available
> for the 351 cleveland engine.

Yes. Your choices are:

CHI - Australian aluminum cylinder head with quench Cleveland chamber,
4V valves, and an intermediate (between 2V and 4V) port size. Being
marketed in the U.S as a "3V" head by a couple of Pantera vendors,
importing through Mike Fielder. The casting I held looked nice but the
price is surprising, given the exchange rate. The CHI heads are
interesting but too new to tell. The exhaust port is raised so custom
headers may be required in some applications and the intake port floor
is raised and narrowed. I'll need to make a port template before I can
tell what intakes will work and how far the exhaust is raised.

Ford Motorsport A3, B351, C302B (a.k.a. high ports) - Cleveland quench
chamber, uses 4V valve train bits and pistons, requires Motorsport,
Roush, or Edelbrock intakes (several different intakes were made for
Cleveland, Windsor, and SVO blocks), best compatibity but of production.
Still can be found used. Very popular with the Pantera crowd. A3's and
B351's flow well out of box, C302's require porting.

Brodix - clone of C302B modified to require Yates type rollershaft
system. Sold unported so requires porting.

Blue Thunder - Combines a Cleveland quench chamber with (ported) Yates
ports. Ports are similar to a Chapman ported SC1 head. Uses 4V valve
train bits, valve locations and valve angles so Cleveland style pistons
work fine. Requires specific SC1 type intake and headers. Stuffed 4V
exhaust port optional. Seemingly a good option but discussions with
head porters and Art Francis (of Blue Thunder) suggest they are race
only heads and need high RPM and/or lots of cubes to keep the mixture
velocity up. Even though the inlet area is less than a 4V, the ports
do not taper and the bowls are very large so flow velocity is low until
RPM is up.

Yates - replaced Motorsport high port family (A3, B351, C302B).
Originally optimized for very high compression restrictor plate
applications. Different chambers and valve angles/sizes. Requires
custom everything and extensive porting. Various versions (C3, C3L,
C3H, SC1) with different port size, port location, valve size, chamber
size, etc.

Aluminum 4V - 4V copies in aluminum made by Ford back in the '70's.
Exceedingly rare.

ARAO - makes a 4 valve per cylinder head to fit stock 4V (4 venturi,
as in 4 barrel carb) manifolds. Interesting, very expensive and
you can count the number they've actually made on one hand (probably
with digits missing). Will make them for 2V, high port, Windsor or
anything else it appears.

>I heard the SVO Yates cylinder heads can be modified to fit, but just
>what has to be done to achieve this?

You don't want to use Yates. They bolt up but everything else (pistons,
rockers, pushrods, valves, headers, etc.) is Yates-specific. Also Yates
heads are sold as unported castings and need some time on a CNC machine
(lots of metal removed) to flow the sort of numbers expected. A friend
has a set of the latest SC1's (technically a separate casting form the
Yates C3H and C3L) and is in to them for $7000 (Chapman ported) but they
do flow big numbers. The best bet is still a set of used A3/B351/C302
with matching intake.

>Would like to build a good street spec motor about 450h/p+, can anyone
>recommend a suitable cam spec.

Yes but will need to know the rest of the parts first. Suggest a solid
lifter cam and use oil restrictors.

>What h/p are the crank and rods good for.

450 HP is no problem. Neither is 7000+ RPM. Usual prep work and ARP
rod bolts.

>There doesn`t seem to be much performance parts available, for these
>engines.

Practically everything is available for the Cleveland, you just have to
know where to look. Prices on all the basic stuff are comparable to
Windsor, except for aluminum heads. No plug and play aluminum heads for
a couple of reasons. First, the 4V's flow nearly 300 CFM stock so no need
to buy aftermarket heads to make big HP like you do with Windsors. Second,
Cleveland heads evolved into race-oriented heads compatiblity not an issue.

Dan Jones

[Dave Wharran]

Thanks Dan,
Can always depend on you having the "real" answers and the small tidbits that go with them!

Dave

[Daniel Jones]

You're welcome Dave. Just saw pictures of your motor on the 351C board. Looks sweet. I'm still flirting with an IR EFI set-up but it'll have to wait until next year.

Dan Jones

[Dave Wharran]

I'd have trouble if I were you, trying to decide which parts to use for the engine. Sounds like you've aquired some neat parts from some of the posts I've read. My choices were simplier cause I didn't have too many options as far as blocks and heads were concerned.

Have a date with the dyno next Thursday to set up the ECU. I have maybe 20+ hours on the engine trying to get it broken in a bit before it gets loaded on the dyno. I couldn't fit headers on it with the engine in the stand, so had to use the stock manifolds with pipes running out under the door.

I had some growing pains with the direct fired ignition. I bought the Hall switch for the crank trigger last year when I was trial assembling everything. The magnets are located in the flywheel. I just bought the ECU this fall. When I tried to fire it up, all the signals coming out of the ECU for the coils were 90 degrees out of phase, and erratic to boot, causing cross firing (just changed the sequence of what output went to what coil to get it to run although it didn't like the cross firing too much and I couldn't find out why it was so erratic).
Turns out they made a design change in the ECU which required a newer style Hall switch. They sent that and it's been running great since.





Dave

[Daniel Jones]

>I'd have trouble if I were you, trying to decide which parts to use for the engine. Sounds
>like you've aquired some neat parts from some of the posts I've read. My choices were
>simplier cause I didn't have too many options as far as blocks and heads were concerned.

Yup, would you believe I have 6 sets of aluminum high port heads and matching intakes.
Gotta get all I can before those idiots start hoarding them! Seriously, I'm going to have
to sell a few pair off some day. I'm just to busy at the moment (working lots of overtime)
to fool with it.

>Have a date with the dyno next Thursday to set up the ECU. I have maybe 20+ hours on
>the engine trying to get it broken in a bit before it gets loaded on the dyno. I couldn't fit
>headers on it with the engine in the stand, so had to use the stock manifolds with pipes
>running out under the door.

Wake up neighbors!

>Turns out they made a design change in the ECU which required a newer style Hall switch.
>They sent that and it's been running great since.

Glad to hear it was so simple. Somewhere down the line I plan to do an independent runner
EFI system. At the moment I'm trying to decide between an aftermarket ECU or a hacked
GM or Ford unit. One very nice thing about the OEM stuff is the large amount of built-in-test.
The aftermarket BIT is very primitive by comparison. Having had to diagnose EFI problems
on early generation ECU's, I know the BIT can be a real time (and $) saver.

Dan Jones