Bad (Optima) Battery ??

[Mike Braddock]

Sharpe,

The tank isn't rusted. The reason for the pin hole is that I modified a (new) '69 camaro tank to fit and I brazed a support for the pickup tube to the bottom of the tank. But when I brazed the support I must have accidentally burned through in one spot and that's where the gas is leaking. Next time I know to solder the tank and not braze it . I will check the filter and pump as you suggest while everything is out. Thanks again for the help!

Mike

[Mike Braddock]

Sorry for the delay getting back. I've been busy with some other stuff and just got a chance to get back working on the car yesterday. We picked up the tank with the new liner and reinstalled it in the car. One of our friends told us that based on the symptoms, he thought the distributor was timed 180-degrees out. So, we rotated the distributor 180 degrees, set the static timing at 10 degrees BTDC, checked the tank and fuel lines for leaks and tried to start it again. Nothing. Pulled a plug and turned it over to find nice bright spark. So we reinstalled the distributor 'properly', reset the static time to 10 degrees and tried again. Engine fired and stumbled for a few seconds and then we shut it off. Tried adjusting the time +/- 10 degrees but that didn't help. Engine seemed to run (at least it would slightly speed up) if I played with the accel pump squirters to feed fuel into the carb. Pulled a plug. It looked (and smelled) pretty dry. Tried all this again, and same thing. So I began to suspect the idle circuit in the carb might not be working properly. Pulled the primary bowl and metering block off and cleaned everything. It looked like new and the jets were clean. Cleaned with carb cleaner and blew all passages out thoroughly before reassembling. Tried again...same thing. Now I'm trying to figure out what to check next.

I've read the past posts on this forum about the MSD units and how to check them. I also checked the instruction on MSD's website. If I try to check the unit like they say using a jumper wire to short the mag. pickup wires on the MSD, I get nothing. But if I check spark by pulling a plug and cranking the engine over, I get a nice bright blue spark . So, I don't know if this is an adequate check or not with the MSD 6AL box I'm using. I'm also using the Accel distributor that came with the car which is pretty old and uses a GM 4 pin pickup that I replaced last time we had the car running. If this pickup was bad again, I would not see any spark, correct?? I'm trying to figure out the next logical step and I'm leaning towards trying to bypass the MSD box and wire up the distributor and coil (maybe even the oil cool, too) normally, without the 6AL. To be clear, the 6AL, MSD blaster coil and all the wiring is brand new. If the battery voltage being too low is the culprit, this should be a good test for that as well, correct? Thanks for the continued support guys! I know I'm close to getting this figured out and with your help she'll be running in no time

Mike

[Cobra20646]

Mike,

I really hate to be critical of someones trouble shooting technique, but yours leaves a lot to be desired.

Why arbitrarily spin the distributor around when you can simply check the correct orientation by pulling plug number ONE and turn the crankshaft to TDC on compression stroke? After all, you had to this to put it back the right way when you found out you probably had it right to begin with.

Question: how did you preset your 10 degrees lead time after re-installing the distributor?

If the engine (quote) "seemed to run (at least it would slightly speed up) if I played with the accel pump squirters to feed fuel into the carb", this would lead one to believe a very lean fuel mixture. Do you run a choke on your carb? Was the engine up to operating temperature before carb adjustments and timing adjustments? Can you rev up the engine? Or does it stall out if you increase the throttle? How about vacuum leaks?

Has this engine ever been run before? Are the valves adjusted correctly? Valve timing too, but that's more than your equipped to deal with right now!!!

From you post, it would appear that your MSD is working. (? ) It would be nice to have a good solid ignition system working on the car before you attempt to fix any fuel mixture problems, or timing issues, etc. If you have a bone stock (simple) ignition system that you swap onto the car, this might help you seperate your problems into smaller individual catagories that you can deal with.

Get your ignition timing set correctly before you get into the carb settings. Then, when you have the car running OK, swap the MSD back in to see if the car still runs OK.

Without being there to observe your problem first hand, it's difficult to make suggestions. I might also add, that if your not experienced or comfortable making these changes/adjustments, then by all means seek help from someone who can observe and take you by the hand to teach you the proper methods to diagnose these type of symptoms. Learning the old way by "trial and error" will get you to the finnish line...... it just takes longer..... and sometimes costs more in the end.

Good luck getting this all sorted out.

- Jim -

[Mike Braddock]

Jim,

By all means, be critical ! This is exactly why I'm posting here asking for advice. Thanks for your input. The engine is not new. It was in the car when we bought it several years ago. After speaking with a few local friends, their opinions were that it sounded like a timing problem. I set the static timing by bringing the engine up on 10 BTDC on the compression stoke for #1, grounding the spark plug and turning the distributor in small (2 degree) increments until I the plug fired. This should put the base timing within 2 degrees of my target 10 degrees. I have no way of knowing if the timing chain was installed correctly by the guy who built the motor and suspected that the chain might have been installed with the camshaft 180 degrees out. That's why we rotated the distributor rotor 180 degrees so it would fire #6 when #1 was at actually at TDC on its compression stroke. I hope this explanation is clearer than my last one . Aside from watching the valves (which I did), I don't know of any easier way to determine if the timing chain may have been installed 180 degrees out.

The carb has no choke. It will NOT run. It only sputters and fires but won't actually run. So it has not been brought up to operating temperature.

I am very comfortable making these checks and adjustments, I just wanted to check if I might be overlooking something obvious. I just went down and unhooked the MSD completely and wired up the distributor and coil old school . Turned on the ignition switch and hit the starter...vroom. She started with no problem . So, the problem is in the MSD 6AL unit. I checked the box using their method of holding the coil wire 1/2" from a ground while shorting the mag. pickup wires and I get nothing. But when I turn the engine over and check the spark by grounding a plug, I get nice bright blue spark. Apparently this second method of testing is meaningless for an MSD system . I'm happy I found my problem, but a bit uneasy that this new MSD box is bad. I'll send it back tomorrow and run it like this in the meantime. Thanks again for everyone's help. You guys have all been very helpful and I hope I can return the favor in the future. Have a wonderful evening!

Mike

[Cobra20646]

Mike,

Well good news..... er.... sort of huh

At least you know what the real problem is or was!!

I'm from the old school of ignition technology I guess. If I'm building a street car with little or no track time to enter into the equation, then I like to keep the engine and the ignition system simple and straight forward. Simple 4 barrel and distributor with magnetic or LED controlled "breaker points". I think it's refered to as the KISS method..... K eep I t S imple S tupid...

For all out racing, where every pony you can extract from the mill is the order of the day, then all bets are off, and whatever the pockbook will stand (and then some) will be the determining factor.

Anywho.... glad there is light at the end of the tunnel now.

- Jim -

[Mike Braddock]

Jim,

I follow the KISS method principle whenever possible and it seldom lets me down . The reason I went with the MSD was not for any increase in HP, but rather to help keep the plugs cleaner at low rpms, where the engine will be driven most of the time. I have been told the MSD helps prevent the plugs from 'loading up' at lower rpms due to the multiple spark. We'll see. After today I feel like just leaving it off altogether . Regardless, I have to speak with MSD tomorrow and see about having it fixed. I also have to call Optima and speak with them about the battery. I think it's okay, but I want to make sure. When the engine was running this afternoon the batter voltage picked up to almost 13V. I was expecting to see higher with my 130A 3G late model Ford alternator, but it only ran a total of 20 minutes. All in all, I'm very happy to have found my problem and that it turned out to be a simple one. Thanks again!

Mike

[Mike Braddock]

As a follow-up and conclusion to this thread, I spoke with the MSD tech line twice today and was told that I had the magnetic pickup on my Accel distributor wired improperly. I was still using the 4 pin GM HEI module and you are supposed to bypass that completely (the instructions are very vague on this so it's easy to overlook). After doing so the engine fired right up with the MSD! Also, the reason the unit didn't test properly for spark when shorting the magnetic pickup wires was because (like a big dummy ) I was shorting the magnetic pickup wires that went to the MSD adjustable timing box and not the ones going to the MSD 6AL .

Now the engine fires right up using the same Optima battery and no charger, thus the battery is also good. The bus voltage measures 12.5V after sitting a few minutes and drops to 11.5-10.8V during cranking, which I was told is normal. The MSD tech guys told me the 6A boxes only require 10V to run correctly.

Finally, I was able to leave the HEI module on my distributor so if the MSD should fail I can swap 4 wires and run the engine fine using only the HEI module and the coil .

Thanks again for everyone's help!

[petek]

Well hey, everything is working, don't have to buy a new battery, we all learned something ... sounds like a win-win-win to me!

[Mike Braddock]

Thanks Pete, I agree. Your roll bar is lookin' good . We just finished cutting the holes out for our roll bars so I can sympathize with you concerning that uneasy feeling that comes over you when it's time to cut holes in a nice body--despite remeasuring two or three times . I agree with you that the rear legs are quite tricky to cut. I used a laser pointer and traced the outline it made as I moved it around the circumference of the top receiver. That worked really well but the hardest part was making the cutouts inside the trunk to allow the bar to pass through. Your bars pass through the trunk in about the same location as mine. To seal it off I just layed up some cloth on a piece of 3-1/2" pipe and then cut and fit those pieces to the trunk. Turned out pretty nice, only took about an hour per side, and the price was right . I plan on carpeting my trunk anyway, so I just wanted a good seal. Aluminum covers could be made the same way and would certainly look nice!

Mike

[petek]

Mike,

I'll have to try the laser pointer idea (great idea, btw).

Oh, if you've got pets (cats in particular) laser pointers make great toys. Keep the cat (and yourself) busy for hours! Just point the laser beam to the floor and watch the cat go nuts trying to catch the beam. (Use great care not to have the beam shine into the cat's eyes.)

[427sharpe]

Mike--Glad to hear you mad it outta the woods! Now go drive, and spin down University Drive (not literally!) and wish my Alma Mater hello!

[chopper]

FWIW, now that you've gotten the system working, it might be instructive to correct at least one error which popped up in this thread. Statements were made that the MSD system has to have at least 12 volts to work. If you check the MSD installation instructions, the 6-series units claim to deliver full performance at ignition voltage levels between 9 and 18 volts. This is not meant to be disagreeable with what the MSD tech told Mike; I'm just repeating what appears in their own installation manual, available online. 7-series are spec'd for 10 to 18 volts, again from their installation manual. They have to work at lower than 12 volts because of the aforementioned voltage drop during starting operations. Just included for future reference.