Is this reasonable for an engine break in?

somebody · #1 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 11:14 AM

Ok, first, I am someone who usually goes by another name, but in this case, I don't want stir any pot publicly...I just want to get some unbiased opinions on this...

Bill is around 2k...

Engine & transmission in car.
Everything hooked up to run.

1. They installed a new fuel pump.
2. Heavier gauge wire to starter.
3. Installed distributor and wires.
4. flushed oil cooling system.
5. After the heavier guage wire was put in, the starter wouldn't kick over, bypassed the starter with remote starter thingy (easily my fault).
6. Broke in cam
7. Fixed a couple water leaks.
8. Fixed a couple seeping oil cooler line connections.
9. Fixed a stubborn vaccume leak.

Is that reasonable? If it is great, but I'm curious. Thanks for your help!

Toivo · #2 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 11:23 AM

a better way to look at it would be to calculate the actual hours spent by them on the work.

Labor rates vary greatly; can range from $25/hour for a tech stringing wires to $60+/hour for the attentions of the top guy.
I don't see any of the first 4 items taking more than an hour each.
The bucks may have added up while tracking down the various leaks, but unless 1 guy worked for a solid week at $50/hour on this car, the $2K does seem to be high, especially since there seem to be very few parts involved.

I'd be curious too. If you took it to a legitimate shop, they should provide you with an itemized billing.

somebody · #3 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 01:02 PM

Thanks for the input Toivo...Anyone else have an opinion?

Cobra20646 · #4 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 01:07 PM

I too think that you paid too much. Unless the leaks were real dogs to locate and repair, a bill to cover one full days labor should have been more reasonable IMHO...... 4 to 8 hundred (max) depending on the qualifications/certifications of the guy turning the wrenches.
- Jim -

PS My wifes Jeep Cheroke just has the air conditioner evaporator replaced. The job requires removing the entire dash assembly and other "stuff", an all day job according to the service guy. Two techs did the job together. Took them all day too. Parts and labor were $850.

CobraEd · #5 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 01:13 PM

Here are my time estimates / Maximums:

1. They installed a new fuel pump. 1hr
2. Heavier gauge wire to starter. 1hr
3. Installed distributor and wires. 2hrs
4. flushed oil cooling system. 2hrs
5. After the heavier guage wire was put in, the starter wouldn't kick over, bypassed the starter with remote starter thingy (easily my fault). 1hr
6. Broke in cam 1hr (no labor just sit there and run the engine)
7. Fixed a couple water leaks. 1hr
8. Fixed a couple seeping oil cooler line connections. 1hr
9. Fixed a stubborn vaccume leak. 1 - 3 hrs ???

About $600 *max* assuming $50/hr!!!!

somebody · #6 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 01:42 PM

I forgot a little something....

Basically this included tuning the motor (I had the engine built by them)...Test drive and adjust as needed.

$68.50 hr. (22 hours). About $200 in parts.

ERA535 · #7 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 04:06 PM

I am in the car business.

Trust me, you got off cheap.

Do you still have your first born son or did they take him too and you just aren't telling us?

Seriously, it does seem as though you were, ummmm, ripped off.

Perhaps more details about what it took to install the heavier guage wire to the starter...was it just from the solenoid to the starter?

What do they mean by- "Flushed the oil cooling system"....there isn't an oil cooling "system" that you would need to flush...it is called "draining the oil" by most people.

How much did they charge you to build the engine - $35,000?

What did they say when you asked them for an itemization of the charges....?

As far as them test driving the car - that should show up as a credit on the bill!

Double Venom · #8 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 05:36 PM

Breaking in the cam has got me?
Did they install a new cam?

If so, now we're talking some serious labor.
Not so sure I understand the new wiring either.

Lot of questions need attended to.

Just the facts mam...but all the facts.

DV

300 Cobras is NOT enough!

somebody · #9 (**permalink**) 04-11-2002, 05:41 PM

No, not a new cam (new but part of the engine build)...The engine was newly built by them, and I put it in. They were breaking it in...The wiring I believe is just from the solonoid to the starter. The oil coler and lines were flushed (new cooler, hoses, etc) to ensure nothing bad made it to the new engine.

BTW, they are now working with me a bit and I'm feeling a bit better...Stuff costs money, I am just set back by the amount and wanted opinions on the matter.

Leroy · #10 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 04:33 AM

If this was my bill I would call the agency for consomer affairs or auto repair. I sure glad I can do all the work on my car for this reason. I feel the time spent or charged was to long for every item on the bill. Tops 3 to 4 hours.
Sorry,
Lee

Steve R · #11 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 11:13 AM

Hmmmm,
First of all, If this is for a Cobra, any work can involve a lot more than meets the eye. It's not like a normal car where the tech looks in the parts catalog and orders the componant proven to work with the car. Let's look at it step by step.
1. replace fuel pump.- did they remove and replace a mechanical fuel pump, or convert to an electric? Converting would involve line work, running wires encorperating safty features like an inertial cut off switch and or an eng oil press cut off...all tied to an approriatly designed and installed relay function...parts$ plus engineering$ plus procurement$ plus installation, plus testing, plus correction of any problems.
2.Heavier gauge wire to starter.- Due to a start problem? troubleshoot to determine this is called for=$, Procure wire, heatshrink, luggs, terminals=$ run wires using bigger clamps, hardware, alternate run?, crimp and heatshrink lugs install=$
All would be custom work. not just going to Nappa and replacing a battery cable from a catalog...
3.Installed distributor and wires:New distributor?=$ or $$$, depending on brand and ign unit...could involve incorpeerating aftermarket parts into wire harness=$, wire, terminals routing , design, troubleshooting, vacuum hoses....$, what kind of wires? Nappa cheapies or expensive super duper aftermarket units, which could involve cutting each wire to lenth and crimping the ternials on, maybe the wires are thicker and need special looms?=$
4.Flush cooling sytem: open petcock drain fluid...oh yeh, petcok stuck? need new one?=$ Radiator crapped up? did it need to be sent out and boiled?=$ if so, remove it, and install it.=$
Broke in cam: one guy to moniter engine parameters, one guy to tweak the eng to keep it running at rpm, maybe one guy manning the garden hose to cool the radiator if needed=$x3?
Fix a couple of water leaks: leaky water pump? procure new gaskets, sealent, losten alternator and other accessories, remove belts, remove pump, clean hardware, scrape old gasket off pump and engine, clean and dry surfaces, reinstall pump, belts tension and tighten same=$, maybe same for water neck?or freeze plugs?
fixed coulpe of seeping oil cooler lines: New A/N fittings?, new o-rings? stripped threads? new line-braided?-would need to be cut to lenth and fittings intalled=$,
Vaccuum leak: t/s, fittings? hoses? componants?

Ok, I am sure you car did not involve all that, but you get the idea. there can be, and usually is a lot more to this stuff than meets the eye. We would need to know specifics to determine if you paid to much.
Steven

Campy · #12 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 01:11 PM

Somebody,

I know a shop that does a great oil change and lube for $200
Let me know if you need their number

Just kidding of course. $2K does sound way too high. You need an itemized breakdown. I agree, Cobras are not "normal" cars, but on the other hand they nothing more that Hot Rods. I would much rather dig into any Cobra repair than have to sift through any one of our modern day wonders

Turk · #13 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 01:27 PM

Somebody
It is too bad, the person who feels like he was wronged by what appears to be an overcharge situation is the one having to disguise his identity not to allow the Internet sleuths to home in on the offending party.

1-He either overcharged, or didn't! If he did, others should know who he is.
2-If he did not overcharge, but you feel like he did, then he should be able to explain the charges to you willingly.

Our shop rate is at $90.00 an hour. Sometimes I find myself having to explain to customers the math behind the totals.
No one likes to spend money on repairs, but I think the customer is entitled to a full disclosure not only after but also before the work is done.

TURK

M & M · #14 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 03:17 PM

Somebody,

You are way to brief in your explanation of charges. It would be improper for anyone to comment until you give specific details and itemization.

I just bought a pair of pants and paid $110, did I pay too much? Most would immediately answer yes, "you got ripped off," how can anyone make this statement until you find out the style, brand, etc.? Were they dockers or dress slacks?

If you don't know what you paid for (specifically parts and labor times per line item), how are we to know?

IMHO, Turk and Steve make some great points.

You should have got some type of price quote before you gave permission to start work. Also, dumb on the part of the repair shop (or person) to not give a quote. This saves agravation on the part of both parties.

Get the DETAILS, post back, and I think it would be more fair for anyone to comment on your situation.

Regards,
Mike

ERA535 · #15 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 03:46 PM

M&M -

You say "it would be improper to for anyone to comment until you give specific details and itemization".

Then you say "dumb on the part of the repair shop (or person) to not give a quote"...

Somebody didn't tell us if he got a quote or not, did he? So it is OK for you to comment with out having all the details?

Sounds kind of pompous to me.

So Somebody asked an open ended question asking for unbiased opinions - and you feel it necessary to tell me that I was acting improperly.....bite me!

Go read! That is what he asked for!

427sharpe · #16 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 04:48 PM

As a shop owner, I think this sounds high on the face of it. We really do need more information to be sure though..especially about fixing the water leaks--where were they, and what was required to repair them? Replaced distributor and wires? With what??? Some hi-perf distributors can be very pricey, and what wiring was replaced, spark plug wires or the main electrical feed TO the distributor? These are very different animals! Fuel pump replaced---it seems everyone assumes that you have an external pump--is this true? Some pumps are mounted in the tank, and can be a real pain to pull, especially if the tank is full. Finally, what kind of shop did the work? A hometown garage will charge less than a full tilt restoration or speed shop! Here in Dallas, the average shop hour labor rate is running about 65 bucks while the high end shops are closer to 125, so it can be easier to see how many hours they say they worked on the car, minus parts costs. As has been mentioned, any reputable shop will supply you with a detailed and exact bill, while some will not provide a written estimate unless you request it, but will agree with you on a price and call if it changes. Hopefully you didn't just drop the car off and say "FIX IT!" and walk away....

ERA535 · #17 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 05:13 PM

I believe he stated that there was about $200 in parts and 22 hours labor at $68.00 per.

He said "installed distributor and wires" not replaced.

Maybe the key is in the "stubborn" vacuum leak.

M & M · #18 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 05:14 PM

ERA535,

I was not trying to offend anyone or be pompus. My words of choice were not proper. Sorry if it came off that way.

I think you would have to agree, how can anyone comment on whether someone was ripped off or not if we don't have ALL the details of what was done?

You are in the car business, so am I. Most of the problems I encounter (which are few, thank god!) here are poor communication on our part, as well as the customer. After the communication lines are opened things seem to be fine.

It certainly apprears there was not an estimate prior to him receiving his bill or he would not be questioning the end result?

He may of asked for details on what was repaired, but it appears after the shop is done, and has not posted back any specific details, such as those good questions raised by previous posts.

Again I apologize, and I don't intend on "biting you"

Regards,
Mike

ERA535 · #19 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 05:20 PM

M&M

No harm. I must be in the middle of my time of month.

These kind of threads are a real joke though, aren't they?

Some anonymous person throws a really poor statement out there and we all try to help. Then I start telling my friends to "bite me"!

I wouldn't be surprised if I decide to quit this whole thing because of this! Nah....

Pat Buckley

Clois Harlan · #20 (**permalink**) 04-12-2002, 07:23 PM

Don't feel too bad I think I ran across your mechanic. I took my car to him knowing he charged $40/hr and he was supposed to adjust my rocker arms, his estimate two hours. But he couldn't get to it the day I brought it. Long story short it cost me $477.09 for this adjustment and a new set of lifters which I bought and the adjustment never happened. I went and got my car with my engine in pieces after he called me with the bill and wanted to know what I wanted him to do. He told me to complete the job it would cost somewhere in the neighbohood of $800. But hey I got all kinds of info on his ability to build and tune a BB Ford.