Long-term storage for assembled motor

excelguru · #1 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 08:21 AM

Not Cobra related, but motor related...

Here's the situation: My dad restored a Jacobs ("Shakey-Jakey") radial engine for a Cessna 195. He won't be using the motor for about 3 years (while he restores the rest of the plane). He found a large metal tub to set the completed engine into. His plan was to submerge the engine in motor oil for the next three years, but since he needs about 220 gallons, this promises to be an expensive proposition. We're trying to figure out what other (cheaper) fluids would work well to preserve the motor. The fluid must have a very low or zero sulfur content. The fluid must not be harmful to steel, aluminum, cast magnesium, copper, or various gasket materials. Any ideas? Based on the prices of motor oil, it would cost about $400 or more to submerge the motor in oil.

Would diesel fuel work? What's the sulfur content of diesel?

Another option would be to place objects in the tub with the engine to displace additional oil. But the objects must be cheaper than the oil being displaced and concrete blocks are out of the question because of acid content, or something like that. (Hmm... maybe bags of sand or rock would work? Hmm...)

Sorry, for the weird question, but I figured you guys might have some good ideas.

Keith

niles · #2 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 08:42 AM

Keith:

I would get on the net or go to a source of Gov't mil-stds and look up equiptment storage.
The army has been storing stuff for years in a greasy goo called cosmoline? The stuff is great; in the 60's I bought enfield and springfield rifles as well as a jeep and a 2.5 ton half track from army surplus. All the items had been stored more than 20 yrs and after you cleaned them (a real chore) they worked and ran like new.
grover

R U YELLA · #3 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 09:20 AM

What I would do is cover the engine in a thick bag and instead of using objects to displace the water, go to the Depot & buy some of that Insulation in a can. Put the engin in and spray that stuff under the bag. This should get the # of quarts down quite a bit. Or if you were any kind of son you build some sort of container for him!

Catch ya later
Ed

niles · #4 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 09:37 AM

Keith:
Just had my second cup of coffee.
Cosmoline is a old storage method.
Somehow I forgot of all my recent missle and high tech equipment storage experience.
Normally engines/missles etc are stored in a hermetically sealed drum or o-ringed box that has a desicate port(chemical moisture absorber). The boxes are purged and filled with dry nitrogen and every year the desicate is checked or replaced.
This keeps metal parts like new; only problems are when foams or plastics outgas and causes a chemical reaction with some component such as plastic encapsilated electronic parts or batteries. Any of these military base salvage monthly sales are likely to have surplus engine or large equipment containers being surplused. They have a sale every month here at Eglin AFB.
gn

Back in Black · #5 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 10:59 AM

You can just spray it on the motor parts you want to protect, and fill the inside of the motor with oil as much as possible. To clean off, use a soft brush, and lacquer thinner or a good degreaser.

THEN, you MUST use several thicknesses of plastic bags, sealed with quality packing tape,....the clear food grade type of bag, AND include several LARGE packs of dessicants inside. Hydrosorbent is the best dessicant (I sell it on line) Looks like you need about 6 of the 40 gram Hydrosorbent units (reusable, have moisture indicators, it turns pink to indicate the dessicant is full,..this is why you want to use a clear bag, so you can monitor this)

You also must store the item in a heated environment. Cold makes rust, due to condensation.

tonyvda · #6 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 12:55 PM

Guys forget all about soaking in engine oil etc this is what you do. Get online and research Vapour Corrosion Inhibitors, its what all the auto manufacturers use. There are a number of companies which supply VCI coated or impregnated bags large enough for your engine, "Zerust" being one.

My company based in the UK, Carrs Paper, supplies VCI paper and laminates to most of the major auto and auto component companies throughout the world but as yet we dont make the bags...however watch this space. We also supply Rolls Royce jet engines with their VCI protection so we have experience in the aero industry.

If the bags are good enough for the US army to mothball complete tanks in and not worry about corrosion, even in the gun barrels, storing an engine in a decent weather proof environment like a garage should be a piece of cake.

If all else fails let me know and I'll dig out my info at work and point you in the direction of a supplier/stockist.

FYI most of the VCI film we supply goes to companies wrapping bare steel coils which are then shipped overseas without any rusting problems.

What could be easier than putting the engine in a plastic bag..and when the time comes to get it out theres absolutely no cleaning off required !!

Cheers,

Tony

Back in Black · #7 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 02:22 PM

But I would also include dessicant packs just to be on the safe side. This covers both bases. (active inhibitor & no moisture)

DAVID GAGNARD · #8 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 02:34 PM

Keith;

I'll check with my cousin when he gets in from work later this week (works away,due in this week), he is FFA certified in both piston engine and turbine (jet engine). Has worked in the field rebuilding these same type engines as well as jet engines since he was 18 years old and is now approaching 60 and still does it for a living. He should know what the recommendations are for long term storage......

David

John 550 · #9 (**permalink**) 04-29-2002, 03:06 PM

I think you might find this to be usefull . BOESHEILD T - 9 Avaliable at a better boating store .(spray can ) It was developed by the Boeing Co, for lubrication andprotection of aircraft components .Boesheild is a combination of solvents, lubricants , and waxes designed to penetration , moisture displacement , lubrication and protection . Dries to a thin waxy film that clings to metal for months.safe on paints plastics , and vinyls .
I was told to use it on my boat electric exsposed connections to keep out corrosion . Company # 1-800-962-1732
The inside of the engine I would put oil in the cylinders etc.

tonyvda · #10 (**permalink**) 04-30-2002, 05:07 AM

VCI bags supplier www.grofitplastics.com

They have distributors in US also.

Cheers,

Tony

excelguru · #11 (**permalink**) 04-30-2002, 05:31 AM

Hey guys,

Wow. Thanks for all the great responses. I've emailed a link for this page to my dad so he can review and investigate all the ideas at his liesure. It sounds like we have a few additional options besides drowning it in oil. I knew this was the best place to post such a question. Thanks again!

Keith

wilf leek · #12 (**permalink**) 04-30-2002, 07:07 AM

Keith - I can't suggest anything about your storage requirements, but I just wanted to say WOW - WHAT A GREAT LOOKING MOTOR!

Lets hope some of that attention to detail and engineering prowess rubbed off from Father to Son - is your car going to look that good as well?

Wilf

excelguru · #13 (**permalink**) 04-30-2002, 07:22 AM

Wilf,

Thanks for the compliments. It's certainly his pride and joy. He really enjoys restoring the plane. You should see the engine in person. It's HUGE!

Yea, I'm notoriously anal about details. Just ask my wife, she'll tell ya!

Keith

Steve R · #14 (**permalink**) 05-02-2002, 10:05 PM

Kieth,
Go to your nearest A&P school and get a copy of the "43-13". this is a manual of std practices as approved by the FAA. In it I think you will find the info on how to preseve your Shaky Jake. my copy is at work. I will look at it tomorrow and update. As I remember it, the proscess involves a special presevitive oil, plastic inserts in the sparkplug holes that are filled with "desicant" material (moisture absorbing material) , and finally sealed in a bag which has several cloth bags filled with desicant.
Take the time to learn how to do it right.
BTW That is the very first aircraft engine I ever built. It is amazing. we tore one down and built it back up for a school project.....keep in mind this eng had been messed with by countless students.(including people's initials carved in the piston domes) we hung it in the test cell and fired it up. It was just awesome to see the fire billow out the collector ring as she spuddered and coughed to life. (no sound compares to a cold radial struggling to start) As old and abused as that engine was, it still pulled rated manifold pressure!!!
The generation of people that designed those engines was a very special breed. There will allways be a special place in my heart for that beast.
Steven

Steve R · #15 (**permalink**) 05-02-2002, 10:54 PM

here it is on pdf format from the FAA....
Http://av-info.faa.gov/dst/43-13/43.13-1b.pdf
I tried to find specific info. this format is tedious and I must go to bed. good luck. I am pretty sure it is in chap 6.
if I can't find it in the 43-13, It is probably in the powerplant book.
I could not find that one online. I will look in my library tomorrow.
Steven

Steve R · #16 (**permalink**) 05-04-2002, 04:50 AM

unable to locate my powerplant book. will update info if I find it.

Steve R · #17 (**permalink**) 05-04-2002, 07:34 PM

found it. AC 65-12A pg 386. could not find this book online in pdf. go to your local A&P school and purchase it....it is a must have for a guy like your dad.

excelguru · #18 (**permalink**) 05-06-2002, 05:59 AM

I spoke with my dad this weekend. He has that book (he has an A&P license). He felt that the information was more suited towards storing parts as opposed to storing an assembled engine. Nonetheless, the information may still prove useful. He's looking into it. He's also gonna look into some of the other suggestions posted here. He said that the information you guys provided has provided some new possibilities that might (a) save money and (b) work better.

Dad was very impressed with the level of information you guys provided. This information would have taken him a great deal of time to find elsewhere, if he could find it at all. A thousand thanks, guys!

Keith

Steve R · #19 (**permalink**) 05-06-2002, 08:08 AM

has he thought of a sealed container purged with dry nitrogen? lets see some pictures of the rest of the plane
Steven

Flyin_Freddie · #20 (**permalink**) 05-07-2002, 04:04 PM

..in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, and ask them! They have several engines that have been 'pickeled' for long term storage that are in hangars, and not in plastic bags, cosmoline coated and so on. They're on the nose, or wings, of aircraft on display in the Legends of Flight hangar. Someone connected with EAA should be able to give you specific instructions regarding long term storage of aircraft engines.

My EAA number is 447601, feel free to tell them I said to call them. Their number is 920-426-4800, and their website is http://www.eaa.org

Check 'em out....they have first hand knowledge and are more than willing to help.

Wow...Cessna 195, what a beautiful airplane. There's one at Colonial Glider Port just down the road from my office....polished aluminum with cream, yellow, and black trim. Stunningly beautiful! I want to see your Dad's, Keith....!