Waterless Coolant?

[Bannon]

Pat,
I think Turk is on the take...

Just kidding! just thought I'd poke the hornets nest a little more, since I seemed to have sparked a spirited discusion.

JB

[Carleton]

Hi Everyone

I have been using water wetter for 3 years now. It does work. I didn't get a 20 degree drop but probably closer to a 8-10 degrees.
I don't use antifreeze. I don't start my car unless it's 70 degrees .

Water/4 bottles of water wetter/bottle of anti-corrosive

[Mr.Fixit]

Water is a far beter heat transfer agent that antifreeze. Antifreeze does lower the freezing temp and raise the boiling point. Ideally we could use just water with a corrosion preventing additive, but some of you live where it gets cold. Water wetter does help prevent localized steam pockets around the combustion chambers in the water jackets, it also prevents some corrosion. Adding it to a 50-50 mix will do almost nothing to lower temps however. It just allows you to run less antifreeze (or none) so your coolant will have a specific heat closer to water instead of the lower specific heat of say ethylene glycol. Most organics (ethylene glycol, propylene glycol, and more) have a specific heat less than 1.

[Wayne Maybury]

Last year I ran 50/50 water/antifreeze, maximum engine temp was in the 190 to 195 degree range. This year I am running 75% distilled water, 25% antifreeze and a bottle of water wetter, maximum engine temp is 190 to 195 degrees.

Wayne

[Gordon Claunch]

OOOOH!!! Back at ya Turk!!!!!!

[Brad Pfeifer]

I told Turk aboutt Water-Wetter, he wouldn't believe me. Now he see's the light.

OK - a chemistry lesson. Waterless essentially means what? Plasma or gas? Its called anti-freeze, not anti-heat. No matter what you look at, to some degree it's going to have water in it. The standard glycol-based solutions are going to run 'hotter' because of their makeup - its the same reason we use them as antifreeze - they hold 'heat'. Too many people make the mistake of thinking "if a little is good, then more is better" and add a lot of anti-freeze to help their cooling problems - only to make their problem worse! Glycol is a form of sugar water, hence the reasons animals unfortunately like to drink it. Those of you who have had enough antifreeze on your hands know that it leaves you with a sticky feeling.

The glycol, or sugar, holds onto the heat with greater affinity (like a pitbull on a mailman!) so it is harder to 'shake' the heat off through the normal channels. Its that same ability to hold-on to heat that makes them ideal for use as antifreeze - they don't give up the heat as easy, therefore they avoid freezing longer. Products like Water Wetter are not glycol based, and therefore don't have the properties inherent to the gycol stuff -they'll give up the heat Pamela Anderson giving up the panties!

You do not need to run any anti-freeze in your car - its an old tale to make somebody some money. Just like changing your oil every 3000 miles in the family car. What you need is water, that is free of minerals (de-ionized or distilled) for cooling, something to keep the seals soft (lubricated) and some type of chemical to raise its affinity to heat if needed for the area. Water Wetter, and another product 'Hyperlube' contain the chemicals necessary to lubricate the seals, lessen corrosion and electrolysis, and promote waters ability to shake heat.

Brad

[Turk]

Brad,
Don't confuse them with science. They'll think it is Black Magic and they'll stone us to death!
Wayne, your car seems to run at 190-195 regardless. Get a new gauge!

Driving and getting similar, or higher or lower readings may be a function of other facts! Doing all this on a test stand removes all the variables.
I guess the Water Wetter does not work and thousands if not millions who have used it are all lined up for a class action law suit for false advertising. I hope they don't name me as a "defendant" in the process.

TURK

[Brad Pfeifer]

Turk,

Isn't Vacaville home to the 'new' science? Genentech, ALZA, and LSB, are all bubbling away with new and inventive ways to grow hair, get wood, lose weight, and get the stains out of "the padding, and the madding" or however that pretentious geek on TV says it!

Brad
_______________________
CCC - Cobra Clone Country

[ColoScott]

I use Evans NPG coolant in my engine and have for over two years now. I like it for these reasons:

It WON't boil over, I've had coolant temps of 300 degrees with no problems.

It is not pressureized at all.

It won't freeze. At very low temps it turns into a gel and actually contracts.

It is more efficient than water / antifreeze. I beleave it is one of the reasons that I can run pump gas at 12 to 1 compression.


This stuff is expensive but I have not had to buy much over two years as I reuse it.

Scott...

[bran3b]

I have used Water Wetter, with some success. My situation is NOT ideal. High altitude - thin air make it hard to keep cool. Add that to a poorly set up carb (I'm working on that) and you get high temperatures. Then take the car to the drag strip, and you quickly overheat. I do use Water Wetter in my Bronco, and am happy with it's performance.

I am looking into the waterless coolant from Evans, hopefully this will help. I will let you know once I have a chance to try it.

[bran3b]

Scott,

Thanks, that is the information that I was looking for. I am going to order some today.

[Gordon Claunch]

Mr Turk, What is the deal, your car is the one that I judge all others by and now LNP comes out and say's his is in a higher state of tune What gives!!! say it ain't so

[Wayne Maybury]

Turk

Aw, come on, be nice. I was just stating facts, not pointing any fingers at anyone. Actually, I was hoping that the water wetter would reduce my temperature slightly. It certainly costs a lot less than a new aluminium rad.

Brad

While I am not a chemist I do know that ethylene glycol (automotive antifreeze) is not a form of sugar. Actually if is a form of high molecular weight alcohol. It does have a sweet taste but that has nothing to do with sugar. The water wetter makes the water transfer heat more efficiently.

The reason that the glycol works as an antifreeze is that it has a lower freezing point not because it holds onto heat as you implied. Ethylene glycol has a freezing point of -13 degrees C or about + 7 F but that drops very quickly when mixed with water to the point where a 50/50 blend protects down to -40 C or F (the same at this point). The big danger with water freezing is that it expands when it freezes while almost all other liquids shrink when they crystalize.

One final point is that antifreeze does not work as well as water at cooling an engine since it simply doesn't transfer heat as efficiently as water. On the other hand it does have a much higher boiling point so it will give better boil over protection. I agree with you that straight water will cool an engine better than a water antifreeze blend.

In this part of the world, you had better remember to completely empty your engine block in November or you will have a very expensive repair next spring. I have seen many cracked blocks over the years. Those freeze plugs do pop out sometimes but the block will still crack.

Wayne

[427sharpe]

I first used Water Wetter on the rec of Corky at Texas Turbo, a notable house of perfromance here in Dallas. They use it in all the turbo cars they do, and recommend it highly. I put in my 66 GT350 (supercharged) and noticed quite a difference...about 15 degrees, which in Texas is a lot of peace of mind in the summer. I run distilled water and about 10% antifreeze and the Water Wetter. I have used it in the Cobra since day one, with the same mix. I think you will be very pleased if you follow the directions and use it properly.
WAYNE: Excellent points, but there is no such thing as a 'freeze plug'...which is why you see cracked blocks with CORE plugs still intact. They are there to assist the foundry in casting the block, nothing else. If you ever get a chance, visit a foundry and see this 'sand casting' done, it's fascinating!

[Wayne Maybury]

sharpe

You raise a very good point about visiting a foundry. I would be very interested in learning more about the casting process. I am sure that it is very interesting. Up here we call them frost plugs but many of my American friends call them freeze plugs. Interesting to know that they are actually core plugs. By the way, they do pop out when water freezes in the block but the block usually cracks anyway, most of the time just about a half inch or so above the oil pan gasket.

[Mr.Fixit]

Not that it's terribly important but may be interesting...

Adding table sugar or salt to water will also lower it's freezing point substantially while also raising the boiling point. Melting point depression and boiling point elevation. This happens when virtually anything is dissolved in water. But salt will facilitate corrosion, sugar will cook into caramel, you get the picture.

SPECIFIC HEAT: the amount of heat (in calories) required to heat one cc of substance one degree hotter (in celcius) from room temp starting point, divided by the value necessary to do the same to water

water has a specific heat of 1 by definition
etylene glycol has a specific heat closer to .8 (off the top of my head, didn't look it up)
this is why water is better for use as a coolant, it absorbs more energy to raise it's temp the same amount compared to ethylene glycol

[Brad Pfeifer]

Wayne,

I am not a Chemist either, though I do have a degree in Molecular Biology. I am not sure you said anything different than what I said - my idea was to avoid turning this into Chem 201, and provide some ideas on how these things worked. As Turk said, if we get to deep they'll consider it 'black magic'.

As far as high molecular weight alcohol, thats correct, it is a form of dihydric alcohol. However, the term glyco- infers some sugar-like or glycogen properties. Glyco comes from 'glukus' or Greek for sweet. Alcohol is derived from sugars, and as we know from wine, not all sugar is consumed in fermentation, thus leaving it with a sweet taste. (Champagne, which often goes through a two-fermentation process, does essentially consume all sugars, leaving it 'dry' - see 'Brix scale')

Mr. Fixit hits on it with his notice of a solution in water changes the properties of water - the ability to absorb energy (in the form of heat) - is what lowers it freezing point. I was trying to keep it simple.

Brad

[chopper]

My experience, as listed in an earlier post. I live just outside Phoenix and have been fighting the overheating FE problem for some time. Perhaps there's some info in here someone will find useful.

To steam or not to steam, that is the question...

I haven't had much of a chance to drive the beast much since the radiator and coolant switch, but so far I haven't seen the high side of 210 degrees, whereas I was hitting 235 prior.

[todd]

I see by the chemistry talk here (took chemistry at Jesuit in 86 don't remember a thing) that I am at the grown-ups table and need to go back to the kiddie table, however this was a very interesting thread and I appreciate the info from all.

Todd

[Turk]

If we can argue about other subjects more mundane than water, please meet me under my new post. "Thin air? Good or Bad?"

Wayne,
You know I am kidding, right? All my references to Water Wetter were based on my ability to live where we do, that freezing is not an issue. Seriously, check the gauge! Smiths?

Gordon,
Do not change your references in life over some maverick making wild a$$ claims. You have a clearer vision of the truth than he does. Don't pay attention to him. He is just throwing a fit because I am building a motor that he is really ticked of at. What does he know. He went and painted his car Red. Can you believe that?

TURK