EFI Controller - What's good

[The Dreamer]

Electromotive TECIII vs HalTech E11 vs FAST ECM

I have been looking into different EFI control units as I planned to build an EFI 351 stroker. I know EFI is costly and complicated, but lets assume we are pass that debate. Right now I’m planning, but I don’t want to pursue an option and be surprised by its characteristics (limitations) down the road. Here is a little background. My first choice was the Electromotive TECIII which runs about $3000 with sensors, but it also comes with a direct fire, wasted spark ignition system. The HalTech E11 cost about $1800 with sensors. Although the E11 doesn’t have a direct fire ignition standard, it is an option (I’m not sure how much that option cost). The E11 also has a feature neither of the other two have and that is an barometric pressure sensor (I would think that would be a valuable engine correction parameter). The FAST ECM cost about $2700, but you get wide band O2 sensors for that price. I don’t believe he TECIII or E11 offer wide band O2 sensors.

Ok, here are my questions. The TECIII O2 sensors read 13.5:1 to 16:1 where as the wideband on the FAST ECM reads 10:1 to 16:1. Is this a significant enough difference to affect operation and tuning of the engine? Are the benefits of wideband O2 only used during tuning which tuning with a dyno with wideband O2 could provide? Also, the direct fire ignition is nice, but I have read that as long as your ignition works (and MSDs, Mallory, etc work) you will not see any additional benefits. This is especially true, as I will be building a stroker where rpms will be kept relatively low (below 6500-7000) and used mainly for the street. Would you agree with that statement? I would also appreciate any comments you would have on your experiences with the ECMs mentioned.

Dreamer

[Mike Braddock]

I'd go with the FAST (formerly SpeedPro) with the WBO2 option. It makes tuning a lot easier, you don't need a dyno to do it and yes, you can run it in closed loop (with the WBO2 active) during normal use. Basically, you get a base map to run the car on, drive around with a friend with a laptop to do some dataloggint and it tells you what the A/F ratio is (ie how far off it is from what you enter as the desired). Then you just adjust it to within about +/-5% and you're done. Very quick and easy. And it has a nice user interface. The TEC used to be a little confusing to tune unless you'd done it before and their (direct) support is very poor. There are some distributors however that are very good with the unit. As for the Haltech, I know they were behind for a while and I can't really comment on the E11 as I haven't used it. For more info on the fast, try the Buick GN forum. Lots of experienced people there--not only buick guys either:

http://www.turbobuick.com/

Mike

PS I know Wayne Presley sells the Electromotive TEC unit for use with his individual runner stack EFI systems, so you might want to give him a call too:

www.verycoolparts.com

[RPRICE]

Dreamer, I have the Tec III going on an engine now. No feed back to offer yet. Went with it so I could eliminate the distributor on a BBF. Have a autocross car using the rotary engine. On it I have the SDS unit. These guys are good and they specialize in SB Fords. Unit is small and VERY simple (simple digital system) and does not use a computer. Comes with its own "meter" for tuning. The units are preset for certain engine combos and the user can only alter the fuel map a certain amount above or below the factory setting. Keeps from burning pistons, etc. Support is excelent, but not really needed. They now offer a full distributorless setup. Would not hesitate to go that route after my experience. Web site is www.sdsefi.com
RPRICE

[Jeb]

OK, I probably forgot a critical piece of this story, but why wouldn't you just use a Ford EEC-IV controller with a mass air meter. All the other systems are speed density, which can work fine, but the ford system on a ford engine that originally came with the ford system seems the most straight-forward path.

[Dave Wharran]

Dreamer,
Can offer this,
I have a Haltech E6K I put on a 351C for an ERA GT. It uses direct fired, crank triggered, wasted spark ignition with a single Hall switch trigger. It has been on a dyno. The successor to the E6K, the E11, should have all these capabilities, plus more.

The direct fired ignition is dead nuts on, no matter the rpm. No distributor to worrry about nor trigger errors from a distributor. Costs more because of the additional coils. Well worth the cost in my opinion.

I'm running 4-48mm TWM throttle bodies. No mass air flow. Maps use speed density calcs base on engine rpm and TPS (throttle position). Closed loop O2 to just just above idle.
Note that closed loop is not a crutch for setting up the EFI maps
correctly. It is used to "trim" the map settings.
I have set up a Haltech on a 180 HP VW prior to the GT40. No closed loop on that ECU. It could be done with the engine in the car driving around on the street. Hard to do, but could be done.

A 400+ HP engine in a 2500# car is a completely different story. The money spent to set up the maps on the dyno was well worth it in my opinion. No way to maintain engine load and rpm on the street. Not only is doing it on the street illlegal, but it is dangerous. 2 hours of dyno time and the maps were set.

As I've said before, any of the ECU's you 've listed, plus more, will do the job nicely. Depends on how much you want to spend and how many bells and whistles you want.

Dave

[Back in Black]

How many hours did it take to dyno tune your EFI?

I have the Holley 950 Commander computer, 36 lb injectors in a customized Edelbrock Torker 2 intake, (514 svo motor) and soon will be taking the completed cobra to a shop for this work..what was the cost for the dyno mapping work?

[The Dreamer]

Thanks for the comments fellows.

Mike
I will check out the Buick site. Good suggestion as all of these forums contain a lot of valuable info.

RPrice and Jeb
My plan is a 427, stroked Dart block. I’m assuming the VE parameters for this engine would be so different that the EEC-IV will not work well and even if I use the TwCeer (Sp?), I will be limited in my control of the engine parameters. My understanding of the TwCeer and SDS systems is they are simple and work well, but you are limited in what parameters you can change, features like logging are limited, and base program support is not included.

Dave
I probably didn’t explain myself well . I may have led you to believe I wouldn’t tune the engine by dyno, but that's the plan. I was trying to determine the value of wideband O2. Does wideband O2 allow for better closed loop operation over normal O2 sensors? Is the real value of wideband O2 sensors their ability to facilitate tuning?

Dreamer

[Mike Braddock]

Dreamer,

I think I'm the one that gave Dave the idea I meant completely tune the car on the road when what I meant was after getting a base tune you can tune it pretty easily at the track where you have real loads, temperatures and cooling. The WBO2 system usually costs about the same as two to three hours of dyno time, and you get to the same place. So yes, you answered your question--the real value of WBO2's is to facilitate tuning. You don't NEED a WBO2 on a N/A motor after you get the fuel and ignition maps close. However, on a serious blown motor, it's cheap protection in the event you lose fuel pressure, etc. For a serious motor like you describe I would still recommend a WBO2. It's like having your own dyno.

Mike

[Excaliber]

Unless your driving in the mountains, why would a barometric sensor be needed? I'm in Hawaiii, it's not like it ever changes here. If I was in Denver, oh heck yeah, I would FOR SURE want one! Seems to me ALL the "stock" factory EFI setups do have barometric, never know WHERE the car will end up!

Ernie

[Dave Wharran]

Took about 5 hours for two of us to unload the engine and get it all connected and ready to run.
Actual dyno time was about 2 hours.

The owner of the shop ran the dyno.
A tuning specialist used a portable O2 sensor (one not associated with the ECU at all) and laptop to do the tuning.

Dave

[coyled]

Dreamer, I have had the speed pro for 3 years. The ability of a wide band o2 to tune on the fly at the race track or deserted road is the big advantage. A dyno can not exactly duplicate the load a motor see's as gearing, weight and wind resistance are factors. If you run uncorked sometimes like I do, you can leave the o2 on to adjust or if you make any small changes like timing. Dyno's are great and I had my cobra on one at first but the more I played with it and data logged it, the faster it went. 2 hours of dyno can get you close enough if you go that route. good luck, scott.

[Jeb]

The EEC-IV mass air system will handle your stroker. You would just need to get a set of 36lb injectors (at a minimum, don't know your projected HP, but 36lb-ers are good for almost 500HP). You get your motor together, final cam choice, final trans choice, final rear gear choice, then call in the info to the meter-man and have him send you one calibrated for your combo. Then, within reason, if you make changes to your setup, the EEC-IV will deal with them as they occur as it is reading actual air fed into the motor through the mass-air meter rather than inferrring it through lookup tables you've created.

You should try to contact PSB who has apparently just started up his 408 stroker using the stock EEC ECU.

[PSB]

I agree that the Mass Air EEC-IV will handle a 351 stroker. The guy that built my engine is using a EEC-IV with an EEC Tuner on his 1200HP supercharged 408W in his drag Mustang.

Pete

[750hp]

Originally posted by The Dreamer


Are the benefits of wideband O2 only used during tuning which tuning with a dyno with wideband O2 could provide?

I'm using an M800 Motec. If money were no object, I would have paid for the WB 02 option. Instead, the Motec comes with 8 hours of free WB tuning time. This gives you enough time to tune the motor on the dyno with WB enabled, before reverting to open loop. I have enough parameters datalogged - which also trigger warning lights, to tell me such things as fuel pump pressure, fuel pump volume, battery voltage low, air temp, water temp, MAP etc. Any potential problems will show up here. In addition, I have an external PLM wired up for any times that I might want to check my A/F ratios (just in case)


http://www.motec.com.au/plm.htm

[The Dreamer]

Well, as expected I learn something everyday.

Jeb and PSB

I guess that is another option then. But, PSB, aren't you planning to burn a chip once you get the engine tuned? Honestly, I have a little control theory knowledge and I like the idea of being able to tweak more parameters. I don't expect to stray too far, the idea just fascinates me.

750

I looked into the Motec (M480 I think), but they were exxxxxxpensive compared to the 3 above and didn't really seem to offer any additional features. The M800 adds features (some I could see using, others not), but what it really adds is $$$$$$. Did I mention they were expensive, like $5K for the controller only?

Dreamer

[750hp]

Well.... I could tell you that I could send you a brand new M800 with loom and full warranty to your door for half that, but then I'd be advertising, wouldn't I....

[PSB]

Dreamer,

I do plan on getting a chip burned. As I don't have a lot of knowlege on tweeking EEC parameters, I personally would rather leave that up to a professional shop. There are many Mustang racers that sucessfully use the EEC-IV system (tweeked with a custom chip or the various EEC tuners available) on stroked, blown, and turboed SBFs, some producing upwards of 2000hp. If it's just a matter of preference - use whichever system you like best.

Pete

[mikief]

Jeb, the problem with using the stock EEC-IV to try to control the demands of an engine using big injectors is in the fuel map. The stock map has the injectors going 105% at full load and WOT. I've found that this was way too rich on my setup(blown 347/42# Inj). Since I didn't want to run an FMU, I opted for a Speedbrain,which allows for tailoring of that parameter. I'm not endorsing them, since I believe they're now O.O.B., I'm just familiar with it so continue to use it.

Mike F

[750hp]

The Mustang guys over at Corral.net always seemed to complain about Speedbrain (mainly the lack of customer service, but also some tuning issues). All it took was one ride in Mike F's car at last year's Fling to realise that it wasn't lacking ANYTHING in performance. As far as the usability of the Speedbrain went, it looked very easy to use. I wonder if Mike thinks it's worth looking for a second hand Speedbrain for your application? The fact that they've gone out of business won't change the level of customer service that you would have received in any case....

[mikief]

Craig,

Hear you're having a heat wave. Hope it's a DRY HEAT!

I think I told you this before but if you remember, the car had a fairly severe performance problem at that time. It was showing a "false no.1" error. Since that was the first time I'd seen that fault, it took a while to track it down. Turned out to be a bad dist. module. BTW there is a speedbrain group in Yahoo and some units come up for sale periodically, in the $300-400 range. They were $750 new, mine was slightly higher since I ordered low impedance drivers.

Mike F