Superformance / Brakes

agro1 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 09:51 AM

When looking to upgrade brakes for an SPF, what Ford model and year would I search for. I was just looking at TireRack for replacement rotors and was wondering if, say, a 2001 Mustang would work ??Here's the link...they have some nice stuff on there...

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/resul...d=all&x=48&y=6

Also, would just replacing the rotors with some good vented, slotted rotors make much difference ? I know it would make A difference, but would it be worth replacing just the rotors ?? Thanks in advance.

CMansfield · #2 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 01:23 PM

Agro,
I don't know what your car number is , for some time Wilwood brakes have been standard issue on the SPF cars. I do know that the Olthoffs have a Wilwood brake upgrade that they do which includes larger rotors, calipers, etc. These are the brakes that they used on the Supertuner Challenge car, etc. You might want to give them a call at 704-647-9924
Chas

Bill Wells · #3 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 01:30 PM

agro1, chas is right. early cars had ford racing type brakes standard and willwood's as optional. at some point, not sure what beginning serial # sequence, they made willwoods' standard. if you have the ford brakes and want to upgrade, ya might as well go to the willwoods and be done with it, especially if you are going to do any track time which i recall from some of your prior postings was your intent. some folks have upgraded the standard willwoods too with higher rated willwood parts, perhaps that is what the olthoffs did with their tuner car. . bill.

agro1 · #4 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 01:41 PM

Chas - Bill....Thanks for the input, and I have looked at going to the Willwood setup - it's about 3 grand installed and I didn't want to spend that much $$$ - but instead try just upgrading to a slotted rotor to dissipate heat better. I have the Willwood brakes on my car (it came with them) but the rotors are the reg old crappy Ford Motorsports...

CMansfield · #5 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 01:44 PM

Agro, I have the factory Wilwoods on my car, they are more than suffieicnt for the daily driving and occasional track events I do. The upgrade the Olthoffs provide include a much larger, rotor, etc. I have an ex racer friend here in town that has a SPF with the Olthoff upgrade and says he would not hit the track without them. They also fit under the 15 inch wheels. Around town, you don't see much differnce, hauling the car down from 130 on the back straight at VIR to enter "the *****" you notice a big difference.
Good luck.
Chas

agro1 · #6 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 01:51 PM

Chas - mine is #940 and I agree with you - the reg brakes are fine for the occasional track day and daily driving, but I think a slotted rotor would make big difference in the fade over the stock flat rotor...After 4 hard laps at Willow the fluid starts to boil...but that is running about 150mph down the front straight and gettin' on'em hard into turn 1 - very similar to VIR.

rdorman · #7 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 03:00 PM

.. but I may be able to help. The powerstop rotors seem to work well. Did you have pad fade or fluid fade? Pad fade, peddle high and hard, car will not stop. Fluid fade, peddle spongy (at best), car will not stop! I would imagine that you are running a high boil point fluid and that it is changed before every event. I just bought a set of Wilwoods for the front of my car, under $700. Not sure why they want $3000. By the way, EBC makes a very good pad for the Ford Calipers.
Thanks
Rick

agro1 · #8 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 03:11 PM

Rick - $3000 is for all 4 corners, full race Wilwood setup - that price includes instalation and labor as I am not a skilled mechanic

I am experiencing fluid fade - spongy pedal, and boiling fluid from heat buildup in the rotor...pads wouldn't help much. It's the rotor that is the problem and I guess my questionis this: Will a better rotor vented and slotted of the same size, using the same caliper make much difference in brake fade ??

rdorman · #9 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 03:36 PM

I can not tell you for a fact that by going with a slotted or drilled ventilated rotor will stop fade. Are your rotors not ventilated now? If so then slotting them will have the same effect (in so far as fade) as getting drilled rotors. This 'wipes the fire band'. Of course a slot in the pad does the same thing (ever notice that a lot of pad have a slot cut in them?).

$3000 for four wheels installed makes sense. You didn't mention the fluid. What fluid are you running and is it changed out completely before every track event. Many of our master cylinders are vented to the atmosphere and brake fluid absorbs water quickly. 'Wet' boil point is significantly lower than 'dry' boil point. Once a can of brake fluid is is been open for 30 days it isn't worth anything but maybe your hydraulic clutch.

Stopping a car is converting kinetic energy into heat. The 'big' brakes are more fade resistant simply because there is more mass to heat up. Any thing you can do to cool the brakes faster will help but it still takes time. If you decide to duct the brakes, make sure it is done correctly or the rotor will curve like a cup!

There is no hard and fast answer aside going with a set up that has been already proven on your car in the environment that you intend to use it in.

Be aware that the Wilwood brakes do not have dust shields to protect the pistons from dirt. They should be rebuilt every time you change pads. Cost will be about $100 each.

It is a tough problem to work with if you don't want to just drop the bucks.

Rick

rdorman · #10 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 03:38 PM

That cost is to have them done professionally. The kits are fairly inexpensive so most of the cost is labor.

Mr.Fixit · #11 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 04:51 PM

It's about 7-8 hours labor to install the 4 corner kit on a SPF. I have done several. Time consumption is bolting the rotors to the hubs, safety wiring all the bolts. Replacing the caliper mounts, calipers, flex lines and fittings, aligning the calipers to the rotors with the shims, more safety wire to hold the caliper bolts in place. If yo run 15's you have gotta shave some metal off the parking calipers to clear the wheels. Then the fluid replacement and bleeding, plus testing and bedding in the brakes so they work right for the customer. Sometimes you ned to re-flare one of the hardlines or some other unexpected hassle. The difference is dramatic, you might just split your lip on the steering wheel the first time you stomp the brakes, after the mechanic beds them in. The factory willwood brake calipers are much smaller than the upgrade calipers, the difference between the rotors is huge. You can improve your track performance by just changing to a harder pad for the track, most guys run softies on the street. keep the fluid fresh, it's cheap and only a little bit of a hassle as you need another person to do it. You can also do some ducting to cool the front rotors for almost free.

The cost is not mostly labor, you are buying: 4 calipers, a set of race pads, 4 rotors, you have to have the rears machined down in diameter a bit, four hats, two billet aluminum front hubs, four new caliper mounting brackets, two parking brake calipers, four new stainless hoses, four AN adapter fittings, new high perf fluid, and a bunch of hardware that is drilled for safety wire. I might have even forgot a part or two.

agro1 · #12 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 05:03 PM

Thanks FIXIT...

Hal Copple · #13 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 08:50 PM

My SPF has over 600 race track laps on it. About half with the Ford brakes, and the rest with a front Wilwood upgrade from the Olthoff's, not the full race "hatted" version. My son Chris and I have found for track days, with the Goodyear GTII's, the Fords are acceptable, as long as you back off a tiny bit on the long straights once you get into fifth.

We have found with the Wilwoods, that we drop in a Performance Friction 80 series pad for the track, it is a bit more heat resistant, and we had no fade even at VIR.

When we went to the race Hoosier radial Slicks, we could over heat the master cylinder. Of course, we would brake really really hard for each corner, no gentle decleration for us. Phenomenal deceleration with hot race slicks.

So, i am going to add some ducting to the master cylinder, you can just take out the small "door" in front of the master cylinder, but i want some ducting to the cylinder. I don't think brake pad fade was a problem, even with our very hard braking. I am moving also to Castrol SRF next fill.

So what we have found is:

Street tires, "track days" the stock Fords are adequate.

Street tires, the Wilwoods are fine, with stock "tan" or upgraded pads.

If you go to race tires, you need cooling to the master cylinder and top rated fresh fluid, and front Wilwoods.

If you race for a duration, like NASA, then the $3K setup would be very helpful.

By the way, race pads for the Dynalites are very inexpensive, i am still on the first race pad set for $40 a set, and the rotors are wearing well, even at 50K miles, not a hint of shudder or shake, just fine braking, and they are the original rotors.

If you get a full race "hatted" set, i am not sure you can get a street pad set for those sorts of race brakes, and then you will wonder where your brakes went on a cool day. Race pads, like race tires need heat to work.

One advantage of the Wilwoods is that they are much much lighter than the Ford calipers. I put them on in several hours, the kit from Dennis Olthoff even has DOD braided SS lines, which by themselves would cost a hundred bucks or so. They are sized for the SPF rotors, and ready to mount with custom hardened steel brackets that just bolt right up. A very worthy brake upgrade from Dennis O. Plus, you can swap out pads in about 30 seconds!!

My experience.

ScottG · #14 (**permalink**) 02-20-2003, 10:49 PM

Argo,

I recently purchased SPF 314. One of the first things I did was upgrade the front brakes to the Wilwood racing setup. The cost for the fronts was $900.00 for parts and 4 hours of labor at HOC to mount them. The difference in braking performance is outstanding.

The only other mod that has had a more drastic change in the car is replacing the original coilovers with the Bilstein units.

HTH
Scott

DaveR · #15 (**permalink**) 02-21-2003, 02:34 PM

ScottG,

Which Wilwood setup did you buy, 4 piston/12.19" or 6 piston/13"? Where did you buy them? What master cylinder type and size are you using? What pedal ratio? Can you elaborate on the change you feel with the new brakes? Which coilovers were you using before you bought Bilsteins? Can you elaborate on the changes you feel with the new coilovers? Where did you buy the Bilsteins?

DaveR · #16 (**permalink**) 02-21-2003, 03:19 PM

Hal Copple,

Good input! When you say Ford setup, do you mean 13" Cobra rotors and single piston PBR calipers? Which Dynalights do you have, the single piston or four piston?

Hal Copple · #17 (**permalink**) 02-21-2003, 09:01 PM

i don't know my rotor size, it is the standard one they put on SPF's, i have no cracks or rotor warp, even with all the abuse we put on them. I have the standard since abou two years ago four piston Wilwoods, just with custom brackets made up by Dennis Olthoff.

They are very very easy to modulate, nice hard pedal, very light, and are relatively inexpensive, all things considered. I have never run out of brakes even with race slicks, i brake really really hard on a race course. I can keep the car just a threashold braking with them and the PF pads, series 80.

Dennis Olthoff also has a full race custom valved/sprung Bilstein set up for Superformance cars, They are works of art, "heim" jointed at the top, and give commanding control even over bumps and stuff. Absolutely "buttoned down" control no matter what the car is doing. They are not the Bilstein set-up that comes on the newer SPF cars, these are full race units, with Intracorp springs. They ride fine, no vibration, but they keep the tire on the road very well.

I am not any sort of experience driver. But Mac DeMere, senior test driver for Michelin, has lots of track time instructing in my SPF. He commented at the last track event, as he was about to take my daughter out, that "this is one fine car, i love driving this one the way you have it set up".

I think not only the race slicks, but the brakes and the full race Olthoff Bilstein package are the ticket to the best available control for an SPF. The ride is fine. The car tracks straight and true.

Instead of full race brakes, i would put that money towards the four piston Dynalites, and the Race Bilstein package.

My opinion.

agro1 · #18 (**permalink**) 02-22-2003, 04:12 PM

Hal - So the Wilwood brakes you upgraded to are the same ones that come on the newer cars, right ? Are they the 4 piston Willwood calipers with the stock non-slotted rotor ? Thanks for all the input Hal, we all appreciate you sharing your extensive experience with these cars...Take care.

Hal Copple · #19 (**permalink**) 02-22-2003, 06:29 PM

Yup, Dennis O. has them made in the correct "width" for the stock rotors, which by the way are fine. The "Ford" brakes on the earlier cars like mine are from the Granada, I am not sure which model Granada, though, they are not PBR's or that sort of thing.

I willl just say that my car has superlative braking under every condition we have thus far subjected it to. I have never had the slightest hint of fade or "pull" or wander or rotor wobble, even with the original rotors.

agro1 · #20 (**permalink**) 02-22-2003, 07:45 PM

Nice to know - thanks Hal...So would I be correct to assume that the Performance Friction 80 pads make that big of a difference over the stock pads supplied in the build box by Superformance ?? Does upgrading to Castrol SRF fluid make THAT much of a difference ?? Also, would you suggest going to PFC 90 for a car that does not see much street driving but is more or less a track car ? Or would the 90 series pad wear the rotor too fast ?

It sounds to me like upgrading to the 1" Olthaff swaybar and their revalved Bilsteins makes a HUGE difference...That, with some nice big Wilwood 6 piston race brakes up front would be a great track setup...Does it ever stop ???