Total Seal Piston Rings

[auto10x]

Anyone have experience with total seal piston rings? Are they a preferred choice over, say, reqular moly rings? I'm inclined to try them unless there is a good reason not to.
Thanks,
auto10x
Bill

[Hotfingrs]

I've used them on 3 engines now....just make sure you get a standard tension ring and not low or medium, or you'll have to run negative pressure in your crankcase to make them work without high oil consumption....

[cobrashoch]

Jack- That much oil gets by the oil ring with low tension rings? Call me a crudea$$ but I've always used standard mollys and allways thought the vacuum pump was a perfomance thing. Learn something every day.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
Cobrashock

[Hotfingrs]

Low tension are generally for racing only, I ran them on the street and with an electric vacuum pump, and burned about a quart or more every thousand miles. I did get good plug readings though. I also used the medium tension, trying to get away from the oil consumption, and pulling 7 inches vacuum in the pan, and still burned oil, and never got a clean reading read on the plugs...I just picked up that engine last friday after having it rebuilt, with regular tension total seal...now time will tell.

[scottj]

Conventional rings like Speed Pro or J-E etc.have been shown to make more power if the gap is set correctly and a light tension oil ring is used. Rings sets like Total Seal, that make the second ring into a compression ring instead of an oil scraper, require higher tension oil rings which create drag and power loss when compared to a light tension ring.

Dyno tests of convensional rings show the same amount of blow-by at full throttle as the gapless style even though when the engine is not running, the leak down is better with the gapless rings.

[Mr.Fixit]

I hear that gapless rings flutter terribly at RPM. ?

[scottj]

Fixit-

That's basically correct. When you use the second ring as a compression ring it creates a high pressure area during the compression stroke, between the first and second ring. That pressure unloads the top ring (which seals from pressure from the top) and power drops. Combined with the losses from the very high tension oil ring that is required due to the lack of a scraper and what you have are rings that are most commonly found in street engines, where the power loss is not noticed.

[cobrashoch]

Understanding what you guys are saying the bottom line for me is how long a ring set lasts in a street engine before they need replaced. Esp. with engines that get hot from time to time. If its racing we are talking about, I've seen some interesting data on some of the new one piece stuff. The key seems to be what do you do with the second ring I'm reading. In my racing hayday it was dykes rings for racing though, and by in large I don't go there anymore. Anyone getting more than say 30k miles on these ringsets? That was always the backside then.
Cobrashock

[scottj]

Ron,

I've had the Total Seal rings in two street/race engines but I can't tell you how long any of the rings last on the street. I've never worn any out. I freshen my race engines every 18-20 nights and my street/race engine after 2000 miles, mainly due to the number of times they've been heat cycled and also to get new springs and lifters in them.

The gas ported pistons seal the best, but with gas ports the ring pushes so hard on the walls that moly rings have a very short lifespan. Titanium nitride or chrome nitride lasts longer but they're hard on the walls.

I wonder what rings Hal Copple has in his with 50K miles on it.

Scott

[agro1]

Scott - Seems to me, you're saying the best "preventative matinence" one can do to a high hp V8, is "freshen" it up every 2000 miles or so; depending upon how hard you drive it ?? Would this be a safe assumption ??

What do you consider "freshening" ?

And if that is the best thing one can do for a serious hp engine; why isn't everyone doing it ?? I'd be interested to hear what others say about doing that every few thousand miles. Sounds to me like the next grand I throw at that sucker is gonna be a "Freshening"

(is there a titanium ring and valveset (lifters at al.) made for 351's and big blocks ? That seems to me the best insurance you can buy )

[Hotfingrs]

First I have never worn a set of rings out, but then again, I've never had them in there long enough.....Freshening could be done in different degrees....In 2 years time I probably put 3K on the Cobra engine. The roller lifters are changed every other year, and the valve springs I also get 2 yrs use out of, but after one year I switch the intake and exhaust springs with each other

[scottj]

agro1,

No, I would go so far as to say that often for a street engine. Look at Hal with 50K on his engine and I'd call that street high-performance by most standards, plus he does track events as well.

My race engines follow a typical maintenance schedule for the type of engine and most people wouldn't call my "street" engine a street engine, nor would they want to run it on the street. Realistically, I could get away with changing springs and lifters only on the street engine. The best preventitive maintenance, IMO, is build it right and for the intended application. I built very well, but in the case of the Cobra, not for the application and now I pay the price. For example; unless you really don't mind changing springs and roller lifters that often, don't run a roller cam with 266 deg Int and 272 deg Exh duration @ .050 w/.700 lift.

As far as freshening intervals base on miles vs. the level of abuse; according to my builder, springs and lifter replacement is according to mileage (or laps) and bearings and rings are according to the number of heat cycles (times run). Freshening is cheap insurance for the race engines since after 20 nights or so you begin gambling with the entire investment. The Cobra engine is MUCH less of a gamble because it doen't get the amount of abuse in a year that the race engine gets in a night, therefore it's less likely to fail.

Basic "freshening" is rings, bearings, hone, lifters, springs, timing chain set, gaskets, & wet-mag. But the race engines always need other stuff like a cam, decking, valves, plug wires, etc.

[agro1]

Good stuff Scott - thanks...

[Mohuska]

I am currently building a 521 with TWM throttle bodies (8 stacker)... There is no vacuum for the power brakes I have or for reducing crankcase pressure...My builder thinks that reducing crankcase pressure will save seals and gain about 20 HP, because the engine is not working as hard against a negative pressure.

I am running standard molly rings with a 10.2:1 compression....What do you all think about crankcase evac pumps?

I am also looking for an electric vac pump for the brake system.....