Hard Starting?

Timbo · #1 (**permalink**) 09-07-2003, 08:35 PM

After a short drive (about twenty min.), Hard re-starts or nothing at all not even a click or crank but everything on the dash seems to work and after it sits, like a couple of hours it starts with no problem? Could this be a bad alternator or a bad battery or a weak starter motor

Thanks in advance!
P.S.This just started happening!

Excaliber · #2 (**permalink**) 09-07-2003, 09:26 PM

Not alternator, as the battery seems to have a full charge, which is all the alt/gen does anyway. Engine running bat volts should be 13 + volts, maybe 14. At rest should be greater than 12 if not close to 13. If it's 15 or greater volts while engine running, suspect battery failure due to alternator regulator putting out to much volts, thus "boiling" over heating and damaging the battery.

Hot motors DO require higher amps to spin the starter than cold ones. Their are several ways to test the battery, heres a simple one. Get a GOOD volt meter (hope it's digital) and check battery voltage while attempting to crank the motor. It should NOT fall below 9.6 volts no matter what. If it does, suspect poor battery performance.

Weak starter is suspect, and more difficult to test without the right test equipement. You MIGHT be able to purchase an "induction amp meter" (they don't cost "that much" but are HARD to find). You hold it against the + battery cable while cranking. The current flowing through the wire "induces" a voltage in the meter and this is how it "reads" amps flowing. FOLLOW the directions for the meter carefully!

40-50 amps is high but in the ball park. Anything over that is suspect starter. There ARE specs for the amp draw of the starter, it could be as high as 75! A compotent automotive shop can run BOTH tests for a decent price to find out (IF you can find a shop that does that).

All this assumes that the vehicle USED to start fine, compression is not "to high", etc. This ALSO assumes you have verified GOOD CONNECTIONS to ground, battery terminals and starter terminal.

Ernie

Bryan Wilson · #3 (**permalink**) 09-07-2003, 11:47 PM

Timbo,
I had the same problem you are describing and found that the earth cable from the battery to the block was to light. Put a second heavier cable to the block and no problem since.
Regards,
Bryan

dlowe01 · #4 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 02:53 PM

If you figure out what the problem is let me know, I have the same problem. I put a biger cable from the block to the frame and it still does it. I took off the cable from the battery to the frame and cleaned it and put it back and the same thing. I thought maybe I had my timing to far advanced but moved it back to 10 and then 8 and still the hard start after it heats up. Any one else with any suggestions???????

Mr.Fixit · #5 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 03:50 PM

I have found that on really HOT motors (HP not temp) they don't like to crank right after shutting off, such as when you are at the gas station and just finished fueling up. These are 11:1 and higher compression, and needed a hi-torque starter to overcome this. The regular starter would do the job fine if you didn't mind waiting five minutes for the engine to cool off a bit. It wasn't a spark advance issue either, removing the coil wire did nothing to alleviate the motor's resistance to ranking over. This was after verifying all electrical was OK. Just that some motors were on the ragged edge of needing a hi-dollar starter motor.

ronzara · #6 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 03:54 PM

I had a problem with an old Chevy Van I had, after I installed headers. The starter would get hot (even with a heat shield) and after running would always have to wait about 10-15 minutes before it would crank again.......

Maybe this is the problem??????

Good Luck.
RZ

Mr.Fixit · #7 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 04:07 PM

No

chevy engineers were dumb enough to put the starter solenoid right on the starter, between the block and exhaust. they typically have "heat soak" issues because the solenoid is too hot. Short out the chevy solenoid, add a ford solenoid inline, and your chevy will start hot just fine. That is what I did to my last two with that problem (headers)

excelguru · #8 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 08:19 PM

When you say "hard to crank", do you mean...

(a) the the starter is turning the engine over but it's just not firing-up?
(b) or the starter isn't turning the engine over to begin with?

I have had (b) before. I found that the cable had come loose at the starter. Just tightened the bolt and all was fine.

Could (b) also be caused by the starter getting too hot due to lack of a heat shield?

dlowe01 · #9 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 08:32 PM

On mine it just has a real hard time turning over. I have not tried a heat shield on the starter yet. Maybe that will work. Will double check all the wires from the alternator and starter again also. I noticed tonight while on a drive that at idle the voltage meter was only showing about 12 volts. When I reved it just a little it went to about 13. It used to sit at around 14 at idle. Any ideas on that? It's probably all being caused by the same thing, what ever that is?

Excaliber · #10 (**permalink**) 09-09-2003, 09:53 PM

That voltage do sound low! Could be indicative of your battery having a harder time takeing or holding a charge. I'm guessing not the alternator considering the other symptoms\history as you describe.

Would it be difficult to swap the battery out for another? Is there any way to check the water in the battery? Is there some way to check "cranking voltage" falls below 9.6 volts? One thing at a time, you need to KNOW the battery is NOT the problem and then move on to the next step. Wires, starter motor, alternator, etc.

Ernie

Steve R · #11 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 08:17 AM

Timbo,
Does your setup use a remote solenoid or is it encorperated into your starter? You state that it "does not even click" That is a key statement. If that is the case, The problem is most likley in the circuit that actuates the solenoid, or the solenoid itself. Don't forget the ground side of that circuit when checking into it.
Steven

Bill V · #12 (**permalink**) 09-10-2003, 09:04 AM

Well here's my 2 cents worth:

I have seen exactly the same symptoms caused by bad batteries on numerous occasions through the years - battery ok on cold starts, but fails (not even a click) after the vehicle is operated for a while and the battery's internal components have had a chance to expand. After a couple hours of cooling down, the engine starts. If you haven't had your battery tested yet, go ahead and get it done. What have you got to lose? Good luck!

Bill

Timbo · #13 (**permalink**) 09-17-2003, 12:06 PM

Can anyone recommend a Good high torque mini starter? I am looking into the summit starter? ....After running numerouse voltage checks and having my battery checked and checking out ok, I figure if it was my alternator my battey would eventually drop down in voltage or die..... ! I am reading well over +30 amps (my vdo gauge only goes to +30amps could be more) when first starting the car and then drops down to about +3-4 amps when on the road. At a stand still with everything off, My battary reads about 12.6 volts and at cranking over the engine it reads 9.8volts and after it starts and is running at an idle it reads almost 13 volts. So I figure I would start with starter!..... I feel a heat sheild wouldn't really fix the proplem depending on the style of sheild I wonder if it would deflect the heat or hold it? So I figure I would start with starter and work from there! Any recommendations would really be a big help! I have a 351w with gt40 p aluminum heads and a mild cam. After looking into them a little, I found the price range very wide! Any help would be great! "Thanks" in advance!